Religion

[Primus Pilus]

He's not a native American, he's just a jackass who deserves nothing more than the contempt of his country. As someone who advocates the death of America and its people, he should willingly offer himself up as the first sacrifice. After all he is an American who lives and works here, even accepts a paycheck from a government funded institution. Everyone's a hypocrite. (Except me of course =P)

[Fatboy]

Whoa, how did I take so long to make such a short post?( oh yeah, the phone rang.. )

By the time I posted it there were 3 new ones there.

Anyway, to answer your question Moonlapse:

Well, not inaction as such, but definitely a more directed reaction as opposed to lashing out at every country that displeases America, weather they have anything to do with terrorism or not.

Invading Afghanistan was certainly understandable as they clearly did harbour terrorists but to repeat myself for a moment, Iraq was a completely secular sovereign state with no tolerance for Islamic fundamentalists whatsoever.Every man and his dog knew that Iraq no longer posed a theat to the US or anyone else and had no conection to Al Qaida in any way. And every man and his goldfish knew that it wasn't some sort of altruistic exportation of " Freedom ", there were plenty of dictatorships across the world to choose from and the administration plumped for Iraq because, and I'll be blunt, of its huge oil reserves and strategic position in the middle east. This is not some conspiracy theory, its as plain as the nose on my face.Its this that has caused an explosion in fundamentalism all across the world.

If I lived in an Islamic country I might feel.......threatened by such an act too.

There was a huge wave of compassion for America after the 9/11 attacks but the response since then has managed to reverse this to the extent that its the most unpopular its ever been, even in the western world.

Now that America is in Iraq, for the sake of the native people I hope they win and succeed in establishing a stable democracy because the alternative is the radical islamist rogue state it was supposed to be in the first place, but all across the world nobodies fooled that it was anything other than a cynical piece of Realpolitik and exploitation of the post 9/11 climate by the WhiteHouse.

Finally, the whole concept of a "WAR on TERROR" is faulty

The spectacularly unsuccessful " WAR on DRUGS" showed the impossibility in making war on a noun ( as someone wittier than me once said )

Terrorism will continue, and flourishes in a frightened world.

 

Remember, no one get too angry, I'm simply pointing out what I regard as over zealous foreign policy, not attacking the American way of life or anything.

My more controversial ideas about the possible motivations behind these actions, I'll keep to myself because they shock even me, and I'm not in the mood to be called nasty names by everybody

 

Pompieus Magnus:

I like your theory that everybody is worshipping the same God. I believe none other than Ghenghis Khan stated a similar belief when the major religions were competing for his conversion back in the day, and he was no dummy.Certainly, who ever is up there, is up there and in whichever form you worship him/her/it, its the same God or Gods who would be receiving those prayers.

 

QUOTE "were not fighting a phenemenon of the muslim culture, were fighting against an ignorance which has plagued humanity for millenia"

Damn straight

[Fatboy]

QUOTE "someone who advocates the death of America and its people"

Oh, I didn't know that now. Having never seen or heard the man, the only thing I thought I knew about him was that he was a native American who opposed the war. I'd like to distance myself from my statements in defence of the man then please ( feel free to take me to task on all the other stuff though )

[Primus Pilus]

No offense taken or meant either way, lol, just important that people understand who this guy is.

[Moonlapse]

I agree that invading Iraq was unfounded without some sort of inital aggression or empirical evidence and that it may simply be for oil, but I don't know because I don't have all the information, only my assumptions. I do think Saddam deserved to be overthrown though, I just don't know about the timing/methods.

 

"were not fighting a phenemenon of the muslim culture, were fighting against an ignorance which has plagued humanity for millenia"

 

...and will continue to plague humanity for the rest of its existence.

[Demson]

...and will continue to plague humanity for the rest of its existence.

 

 

True. Sort of. As ICT continues to develop, we will get over the ignorance. But by the time that happens, I'm not sure we can still be considered humans.

[longbow]

Well, i dont know who ward churchill is but we have a guy here (uk)Abu Hamza who sounds like him.Hamza used to preach his hatred of america and britain on our STREETS after the police shut his mosque down (He hates britain but he takes our money in all the benefits he receives,hes not even here legally???).Well anyway,hes in prison now waiting for extradition to USA or Egypt,were hes wanted for terrorism offences.good ridance .L

[Guest spartacus]

I believe Hamza was getting a small fortune in state handouts, it appears we pay terrorists to stay here whilst they preach how bad we are!

 

It makes no sense to me

[Demson]

It's obviousily a flaw of the system. But considering the amount of good the system is doing - I wouldn't be too harsh on it.

 

Shutting down mosques won't end the problem. The preachers will just go somewhere else, and their facist audiance with them. The only way to solve this is by getting the often uneducated fascists involved in society. Make them aware of the good the system has brought. Make them aware that the only reason they can protest is because of the safe enviroment the system has given them.

 

The system is flawed. But it needs to be developed and progressed, not ended.

 

[edit] Lol - I'm way off topic heh. It happens sometimes, sorry. I just get these crazy insights and blurb them out.

[Primus Pilus]

I certainly can't speak for Europeans and individual nations, as its a decidedly different environment than that of the States, but here people use the freedom granted to them in subversive ways, fully aware of the price that was paid to achieve it. People preach the downfall of our society, hatred of our government, society and our military, all while living in the confines of opportunity, freedom and relative safety that those very things provide. Majority rule is quickly devolving into minority rule and the inevitable self implosion that can only result from lack of cultural and ideological leadership.

 

Standing on a moral high ground and hoping our 'societal enemies' come to understand the democratic and western way of life will only continue to lead to our collapse. War and violence may or may not help change the face of the earth for the good, but I very much believe that 'standing pat' will only lead to one possible outcome.

[Iulius]

well, america is way up excrematory creek with out hte proper means of locomotion. I think the iraqi invason was not bad until i realized, "*****. we got ot stay now!" I have no clear feeling on the "war of terror". i believe that whole area of the world is messed up. messed up not in the sense of wrong religion or anything that discriminatory but in their mind set. blowing your self up... sends chills up my spine (well job well done then i guess).

bit i have serious problems with people who excerise all these rights that are very liberal and dare i say american (such as freedom of speech etc though not to upset otehr countries b/c i know others have them as well). They take their rights to the extreme by lets say being annoyin in public and then backing them selves up wiht :"freedom of speech". The "overly individualistic" people who are jsut mean and bitter to america b/c they CAN be. u know who i am talking about? i got pride. yea us. yea america but i am not blind. we should never have gotten involved in the middle east. I think we might of had to at some point but it would be nice if we could jsut sit on our continent and twiddle our thumbs singing "god bless (or for those overly individualistic people who also trash god jsut b/c they can) "higher power bless america.

[Demson]

Very true PP. If people abuse the freedom that was granted to them and are aware of this - then we should not try to educate them. Instead, we should hold them accountable for what they're doing. Take away the freedoms they abuse and 'get rid of them'. I'm all for it. It has nothing to do with morality, but with survival.

 

However, when people are unaware - are they still our enemies? By treating them as such we will only gain more opponents, as the people that are aware of their abuse will just use it as an excuse to justify their actions.

 

Standing on a moral high ground and hoping our 'societal enemies' come to understand the democratic and western way of life will only continue to lead to our collapse.

 

 

We should confront them, not hope. We should hold them responsible, that is the only way they'll learn. But we should not try to get rid of them, as they're victims themselves.

 

The true threat to our society came from within, not from the middle east.

[paolo]

I agree with Moonlapse, we don't have all the information; that people tend to go with the theory that supports their viewpoints; and that the caution on media as a source of fact. I am always amused at how many people think the president of the United States is an 'idiot' and in the same breath declare how much more competent they themselves are at running a world power with all the complexities, clashing needs and ideas of the masses and those in power under him. A world leader is not at liberty to act on whatever whim bounces through his head, instead he weighs many things, that we, the public, no matter how brilliant we are, do not know all the factors involved. Our president is not an intellectual type, but he is smart and he is consistent. While intellectuals are admirable in many respects, are not necessarily optimal candidates as world leaders because they are not always (<-note the careful wording) also action oriented nor possess other essential qualities for this high-pressure and complex position.

 

The media (usually/always ?) has to sell advertising and as a result, is dependent on sensationalism as a method of hooking readers. The penalty for false reporting and inciting dissension in the United States is entirely too lax. There is a difference between "Freedom of Speech" and the ABUSE of "Freedom of Speech"

 

I also agree with Moonlapse that it is good that saddam hussein was overthrown, as he was an oppressive leader and all people deserve freedom. Wars should only be fought for freedom. The fact that Iraq has oil, only helps us fund our assistance to them. If we make a little profit from their oil, it is a small price to pay for their freedom. After all, we are not going to suck them dry.

 

I also applaud Primuspilus on his comments about naysayers in the States. No one is forcing them to live here. I for one am grateful and proud to be a US citizen. We have our faults, but name me a country that doesn't. (Also he has a wayzkewl signature quote)