Religion

[Ursus]

Can I ask any religious people here, when you say you're religious, do you use your religion as a guide to living a good life or does this mean you seriously think that your particular religion, out of hundreds available, is the one and only true form of worship and the rest of us are damned for eternity etc?

 

 

These questions might make sense from a Christian or Islamic perspective, but they don't make sense from the perspective of my religion. We feel different people have different gods, who may or may not be the same gods known by different names to different cultures. In any case, different cultures have different ways of approaching divinity, and that's to be expected. Religion to us is about how we of a certain cultural persuasion approach certain divine and supernatural forces in the here and now. It's very ritualistic rather than moralistic, and the status of one's afterlife doesn't play the same part as it would in Abrahamic faiths.

 

Morality is something that is usually separate from religion. That means two people who use the same exact rituals in a religious format might go about their lives with different philosophies. But generally morality so construed is inspired by the traditional mores of the culture that knows them. We sometimes have different ideas about what " being a good person" and "living a good life" means. There is an emphasis on one's proper standing in the community, on being an honorable person, on glory for one's self and one's community.

 

One scholar defines the values of Roman society as such:

 

"Repute, gloria, was the reward of virtus, manly courage, expressed in service to the patria, by the holding of high office and the waging of war. " -- F.W. Walbank, The Hellenistic World.

 

Most of us can't go about these days conquering nations and civilizing barbarians, but the point is made that one's reputation is based on how the community perceives one's duties and abilities in relation to that community. It's a very earthy morality.

[Moonlapse]

"but i have trouble believeing that God would put some one in eternal torment. If he "loves" us so much i doubt he would do it."

 

"i believe religion gave rise to our belief tht life matter and we should cherish it, don;t kill, etc. Plus i find it a comfort to know that there is some one out there and something better than what we have now."

I had trouble with that too.

 

When I consider that I may just cease to exist after death, it makes me cherish life more than I ever have. What kind of life do you really lead if this is not the final destination and you are just waiting for something better? What if all that really mattered was this life you have, and that when you die you are simply not alive just as you were before you were born. Its hard for humans to not think that they will continue to exist somehow even after they cease to exist.

 

I don't know what happens after death, but I'm not going to let the unknown determine my actions in reality. What determines my actions is the fact that this is my one life, the most important thing I will ever have.

[Moonlapse]

Morality is something that is usually separate from religion.

As it should be, IMO

[Iulius]

there is always tha nagging doubt about the whole non existance thing. if it is so i wont care much will i? that is also sort of a comfort. The idea that after life there is nothing. Since i won;t know i wont very much care.

[Demson]

On another note, religion also seems to be about that divine and mysterious nature of life. Often, non-religious people are claimed not to vallue life as 'we think it's only a biochemical process'. Obviousily, allot here are aware that there's a good chance there's allot more then we can see. I'm going to post my thoughts on that x-factor nevertheless... Just for fun's sake

 

Our existance rests on two pillars; time and space. And both happen to be outragious, crazy phenomen.

 

Time is the more bizare of the two. We seem to recognise now, but when you look logically at it... There is only a past and future. But still the now is fundemental to existance, as we use it to relativate. It's bizare.

 

Space is plain paradoxal. Does the galaxy end somewhere? Then there has to be a barrier. What's behind the barrier? If there's nothing - there is no barrier and the galaxy is endless. If there is something - where does that end? Thus, there's endless space and consiquently, endless possibilities. which also means there's a possibility there is a barrier where everything ends. In other words; space is paradoxal by nature.

 

Considering the paradoxal and bizare nature of the universe and existance in general... I would say we only begin to exist after death The fact that we have eyes and ears to percieve our enviroment might actually only serve to restrain our consiousness. The galaxy is such a complex and ingenious phenomenon, isn't it plain arrogant to say life is restricted to us? When our molecules and atoms are spread out amongst the galaxy... What will happen

 

 

 

Of course, it's just a theory.

[Fatboy]

thanks for the honest answers about your religious beliefs everybody

 

Iulius mentions the Pope. I reckon the present Pope is one of the best things the Catholic church has going for it at the moment and it will be a shame for Catholicism when he dies. Although it seems there is strong evidence that he was involved/complicit/aware of, the supposed murder of his predecessor John Paul I, Vatican politics has always been very turbulent so I wouldn't find it all that shocking if he was. He's actually a pretty impressive guy from the perspective of the relentless workload he has shouldered through years of ill health. His stoic determination reflects well on the Catholic church. I'm not sure how incorrupt he is though - after all he did pass legislation legitimising the P2 masonic order in the curia, not exactly a measure likely to help curb corruption and increase transparency. I've yet to properly investigate these things though so I don't want to make any more accusations against someone who nothwithstanding anything alse, is clearly a passionate and dediated pontiff desrving some respect. ( plus he's not feeling so well at the mo' - so I'll give him a break )

 

QUOTE "The new generation of muslims seem to be clinging onto their faith even more fanatically than their parents do".

I keep hearing about the rise of fundamentalism among immigrants and the inevitable xenophobic backlash among native Dutch. For years, many of us have regarded The Netherlands as an example of how a country could be run with an attitude of tolerance and inclusiveness or even ( and we probably got carried away here ) as some sort of liberal utopia of peace and love and harmony etc, so I think its a damn shame if these days are beginning to come to an end.

It seems from here that the ultra tolerant and welcoming attitude to immigration has come back to bite you in the ass.If I was Dutch I imagine I would be pretty pissed off that people who we welcomed into our country, who we built mosques and schools and housing for, not satisfied with rejecting our own culture, saw fit to attack the very freedoms and attitudes which allowed them come here in the first place.

Surely, if people move to a new country they should make some attempt to adjust to the local culture, and certainly not impose their own values on everyone else. Basically if the "noble experiment" ( as someone once said) that is dutch society is going to be dismantled because of fundamentalist ignorance, I think it sucks.

I could, of course, be way off the mark about the situation because I'm only basing a lot of this on a newspaper article I happened to read the other day, but that is the picture it painted.

 

I was going to contribute on the rather deep and and facinating direction you guys are heading in, the whole area of the nature of existence, the Universe, reality and everything, but I've got a hangover and when I started to think about it my brain hurt - so I'll leave it at that for the moment and go try and find some alka seltzer.

[Ursus]

It is difficult, and perhaps even foolhardy, to tolerate any group whose ultimate goal is to overthrow society-as-you-know-it and replace it with whatever religious and/or political system they have dreamed up in their fanatic little heads.

 

To put it another way, are you going to tolerate someone who is willing to imprison, torture or even kill you and yours for not confirming to some bizarre thought system?

 

I wouldn't. Freedom is worth fighting for.

 

I think the situation is not entirely different from early 1930's Europe, when the various European powers could have crushed the rising fascist threat in Germany while it was still small and growing. Instead, they decided to give peace a chance, and follow a policy of appeasement. In retrospect, that really didn't work out very well.

[Fatboy]

QUOTE" I think the situation is not entirely different from early 1930's Europe when the various European powers could have crushed the rising threat of nazi Germany while it was still small and growing. Instead the decided to give peace a chance and follow a policy of appeasement. In retrospect, that really didn't work out very well "

Well, I agree with the rest of what you say about freedom being worth fighting for etc but geez, I think I thouroughly dissagree with this statement if only because the present US administration has used this comparison as part of its reasoning for its idiotic response to 9/11.

It depends what your referring to.

If its the big picture - the " war on terror " etc then I definitely do.

Incredibly, the US has seen fit to invade and bully Iraq and Syria respectively, secular countries with absolutely zero tolerance for Islamic fundamentalism, already turning Iraq into a hotbed of fanaticism, and should Syria be attacked it would surely go the same way. Before the aggressive response of the US to the terrorist attacks, Osama bin Laden and co. were close to being washed up, having failed miserably to start Islamic revolutions in Algeria and Egypt due to the complete lack of interest, and finally open emnity from the native muslim populations.Islamic fundamentalism has recovered in these places, and across the world since then. Osama and co were clearly counting on the reckless overreaction by the US Goverment to drum up support for their dying movement. And now, its back for good

I think any comparison between the rise of Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups across the world and the growth of the Nazi Germany is very tenuous indeed - Germany was a coherent state who needed to be squashed before it reached its full capability, Islamic fundamentalism feeds on, in fact needs, the aggression currently directed at the Islamic world in order to survive.

 

Of course, if you're referring to the response of countries in Europe and elsewhere to the Islamists living in their midst , which I've just realised is probably what you ARE referring to , well then I agree with you completely, you can't let that ***** slide when people come to live in your country and then proceed to take advantage of the freedoms of your society to actively attempt to destroy everything it stands for and replace it with " whatever religious and/or political system they have dreamed up in their fanatic little heads "

Hmmmn...I didn't really think before I stared writing this one so I may have done you a diservice with my first interpretation of your statement.

Either way, any opportunity for a wild rant about American foreign policy is generally too tempting for me to miss

[Moonlapse]

Uh oh. Shall I split the topic?

 

No offense to anyone, but most people make snap judgements on these issues for whatever personal reasons and have no problem finding media 'facts' to back their viewpoints. You can argue endlessly, because all we know is what we've heard. Keep this in mind...

 

Continue!

[Moonlapse]

On the topic of the 'war on terror', read some Iraqi blogs. The opinions are just as varied as anywhere...

 

When it comes down to it, the question isn't who is right or wrong, because neither is. The question is, which side most supports my interests?

 

Many people in the US would like to see the US defeated, which I see as a horrible contradiction. Ward Churchill for example. He makes a very decent living speaking against the system and taxpayers he collects his paycheck from. If he hates it so much why not take a plane over to Pakistan to hang out with the terrorists he praises? Do they support his interests of having a nice home in beautiful Colorado, an excellent paying job and excercising his civic liberties? They'd cut his head off.

[Fatboy]

QUOTE" Uh oh "

Yep, touchy subject I've veered into and no mistake

We haven't actually had the opportunity to argue over it yet cos I've just there launched into a an unprovoked rant and no one has had the opportunity to dissagree yet. I enjoy the odd rant - it clears the system.

Stay chilled though man, most people on the forum know by now to take me with a pinch of salt when I occasionally launch into a biased tirade against whichever religion/government/political system Ive got a problem with on any given day. Besides, I can be relied on to clamber down off my high horse and compromise when one of my arguments gets taken apart.( Not that I don't believe what I say, I just tend to put it out in the most bald form possible )

I know people get pretty worked up over this and, yes the argument is endless really, but its also incredibly important and I've found on the couple of occasions I've put this sort of provocative post out there we've tended to end up with interesting discussions ( which is kind of why we're here )

Oh yeah, and neither side supports my interests, some of us are just stuck in the middle dealing with the reprecussions which is why I reserve an equal amount of vitriol for either side

 

Split the thread? hmmmn, let me see what was it originally about......is religion a bane on society?....yeah, I suppose I am hijacking the thread a little,ah well, feel free then everybody to ignore my last post, I just thought we were headed in that direction and I may have jumped the gun a little.

[Moonlapse]

No actually I think this is a good place to keep the discussion, since its a natural progression.

 

I appreciate the fact that you are contributing to an interesting dicussion. Thats why I like this thread, its not small talk. People are expressing strong thoughts and feelings where other people can see them and think about them.

 

Personally, I agree with the US performing some damage control. Unfortunately, I think the US is under the false pretenses of 'liberating' and thus trying to appease world opinion, instead of just doing what they came to do - remove threats. I know it sounds harsh, but I think the preoccupation with appeasement and compassion is undermining everything that is happening and will only prolong the agony and perhaps cause failure.

 

One question. Are you implying that in-action would have defeated Islamic radicals?

[pompeius magnus]

Ok heres my view on religion. Every religion in the world is interconected and in fact all the same, but with different components. Me being a christian and monothesitic can only worship, and only want to worship, my one god. However, my god is Allah in the Arabic tradition, and Yahew in the Jewish tradition. As far as the pagan relgions go, they divide the monothesitc god into different components and worship those components in seperate ways, but there different gods are the same as my one god, but just split up. Even looking at the myths of the greeks and romans it is obvious that they have a lot in common with the old testatment and also of the mesopotamian and egyptian myths.

[Demson]

QUOTE "The new generation of muslims seem to be clinging onto their faith even more fanatically than their parents do".

 

I keep hearing about the rise of fundamentalism among immigrants and the inevitable xenophobic backlash among native Dutch. For years, many of us have regarded The Netherlands as an example of how a country could be run with an attitude of tolerance and inclusiveness or even ( and we probably got carried away here ) as some sort of liberal utopia of peace and love and harmony etc, so I think its a damn shame if these days are beginning to come to an end.

It seems from here that the ultra tolerant and welcoming attitude to immigration has come back to bite you in the ass.If I was Dutch I imagine I would be pretty pissed off that people who we welcomed into our country, who we built mosques and schools and housing for, not satisfied with rejecting our own culture, saw fit to attack the very freedoms and attitudes which allowed them come here in the first place.

Surely, if people move to a new country they should make some attempt to adjust to the local culture, and certainly not impose their own values on everyone else. Basically if the "noble experiment" ( as someone once said) that is dutch society is going to be dismantled because of fundamentalist ignorance, I think it sucks.

I could, of course, be way off the mark about the situation because I'm only basing a lot of this on a newspaper article I happened to read the other day, but that is the picture it painted.

 

I was going to contribute on the rather deep and and facinating direction you guys are heading in, the whole area of the nature of existence, the Universe, reality and everything, but I've got a hangover and when I started to think about it my brain hurt - so I'll leave it at that for the moment and go try and find some alka seltzer.

 

 

If you ask me, the media is overreacting. I've never met a muslim I didn't like because of his religion. In fact - I go to a school where us 'native' Dutch are a minority, and things are going pretty smoothly in terms of multiculture. Sure - there are issues... But there would be issues in a 'pure' culture too.

 

There are bad apples in the muslim community. Namely muslim fundementalism.

 

There are bad apples in the christian community. Namely ultra-right conservatives.

 

There are bad apples in patriotic communities. Namely Neo-Nazism.

 

They're all the same if you ask me. They all want to upset the lives of others to make their own lives better. The difference is that the muslims are getting all the attention of the media.

 

Not to say we shouldn't deal with the bad apples of the Muslim community. In the contrary - we should. But we should deal in the same way we deal with neo-nazi's and ultra-right conservatives.

 

The bad apples are just plain pityful, and a painful nuisance to society. It has nothing to do with their religion and believes; it's just an easy way to express their shortcomings towards their fellows human beings.

 

We're not fighting against a phenomenom of the muslim culture. We're fighting against an ignorance that has plagued humanity for milenia.

 

The only way to win is together with the muslims, with the christians, with the patriots, and any other majority and minority out there.

 

If not, we might have our Third World War anyway. Looking at how things are going now, I fear for the worst.

[Fatboy]

Moonlapse,

I just noticed the last part of your previous post, I don't know if you edited it or if I'm just going blind.

Anyway, I can see how the likes of Ward Churchill could be very irritating to Americans when their country is at war but as a Native American he owes the United States nothing ( not even his nice home ) and I think an attitude of resentment is entirely understandable given the treatment they recieved and situation many are still in.

Besides, a lot of people would say ( me included ) that America's civic liberties are more under threat from the present administration than by Islamic fundamentalists.

Wanting America to LOSE the war is a bit much though ( as well as a tad unpatriotic )