Stop all the silly Ancient Rome / United States comparisons

[Formosus Viriustus]

An absolutely absurd comparison, no doubt. The thought of Obama, with his rail-thin frame, decked out in full armor, wielding a sword makes me chuckle though.

 

Obama is so skinny, he'd likely fall over if you strapped all that armor on him. I doubt if he'd be able to walk, not to mention ride a horse...

 

He'd make an excellent Don Quixote, though.

 

 

F rmosus

[sylla]

These ridiculous analogies even penetrate the press:

 

Agricola and Iraq

 

Although, I must say that it is quite a well written article.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Ingsoc]

While this has never been an American practice, I think Barack Obama is probably the one president fit enough to ride on horseback (with a sword and armor) on the front line of any battle.

[Ludovicus]

Although I enjoy Ancient history, I

[DecimusCaesar]

The comparisons might be silly, but as Mary Beard has pointed out, they are sometimes useful for making us think more deeply about ancient history. Some argue it even turns the spotlight on Ancient Rome and Classical history, a subject that's often criticised as being irrelevant in modern times. As long as it brings some attention on our subject among people who usually wouldn't touch a history book with a ten foot pole, then it's probably a good thing in a way, even if the discussions are rather pointless, and the comparisons very vague or strained.

[sylla]

The comparisons might be silly, but as Mary Beard has pointed out, they are sometimes useful for making us think more deeply about ancient history. Some argue it even turns the spotlight on Ancient Rome and Classical history, a subject that's often criticised as being irrelevant in modern times. As long as it brings some attention on our subject among people who usually wouldn't touch a history book with a ten foot pole, then it's probably a good thing in a way, even if the discussions are rather pointless, and the comparisons very vague or strained.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Ursus]

The comparisons might be silly, but as Mary Beard has pointed out, they are sometimes useful for making us think more deeply about ancient history. Some argue it even turns the spotlight on Ancient Rome and Classical history, a subject that's often criticised as being irrelevant in modern times. As long as it brings some attention on our subject among people who usually wouldn't touch a history book with a ten foot pole, then it's probably a good thing in a way, even if the discussions are rather pointless, and the comparisons very vague or strained.

 

 

That is true. But the danger is that ancient history can then become nothing but an extension of someone's modern politics rather than seeing the Romans and the Greeks in their own terms.

[Antiochus III]

I completely agree with this post, and I find it disturbing how ridiculous some comparisons between the current United States and Ancient Rome. It was a completely different epoch, the governing bodies were different, peace was maintained in a different way, the economy was so different it's almost impossible to understand those comparisons, and the culture was different. What the people who try to make such comparisons are really attempting to point out is that human nature has essentially remained the same and thus the human states will always be relatively similar.

 

Another point that many people make (to varying degrees) is the fact that Rome was merely a continuation of Greek culture, or that they "borrowed" everything they had from them. Again, can anyone name for me a culture that wasn't shaped by the other cultures around it, the cultures it descended from?? The United States, the Greeks themselves, the Persians, and many others are usable examples in my opinion. In fact, has there ever been a country or state or empire with a completely unique culture? Maybe the first humans ever. Other than that, cultures are simply based on the languages being spoken in that region, the climate, etc.

 

Will these two ideas ever stop being taught in schools? Ever? Heck, there are some "teachers" who love to rant and rave about people not using respectable websites for information--which is fine, but they themselves routinely present false information from sources that they said were "reliable in the past." These are the same people who teach some of those typical insight-free decades old opinions as if they were facts. I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed teachers ("teachers") presenting hearsay and opinions as facts. "The bystanders are just as bad as the perpetrators," "Roman culture is Greek culture," "The Roman army faced elephants at Cannae," "The biggest factor in the Roman army's defeats in the Second Punic war was elephants," "The Roman army had never seen elephants before Hannibal invaded Italy," The Romans 'conquered' the Jews in 162 B.C."

 

ATG

[Formosus Viriustus]

Can any parallels be drawn between the arrogant and condescending attitude of the present day Anglo-Saxons towards the rest of the world and the attitude of the Romans towards conquered peoples ?

 

FV

[caesar novus]

Can any parallels be drawn between the arrogant and condescending attitude of the present day Anglo-Saxons towards the rest of the world and the attitude of the Romans towards conquered peoples ?FV

To get back to Professor Madden, who was cited in the original post:

 

Esteemed university professor and best-selling author Thomas F. Madden presents an intriguing series of lectures based on a fascinating premise: that the United States has more in common with the rising Roman Republic than with the declining Roman Empire. The Tiber and the Potomac explores the amazing parallels between history's two most unusual superpowers. Both nations built empires based on trust, skillfully making friends of enemies.

Now every once in a while tempers wear thin, but there is still implicit trust. Most of Europe can go flabby with minimal inconvenience for military preparations because they know in a crunch that the blood and wealth of the US will again defend them against any attack. Same for much of the rest of the world - every little indefensible country can party on and get rich, instead of making awkward alliances against the thuggish natural predators of the world, because they know "daddy" is highly motivated to be there for any rescue.

 

The financial crises is partly an indicator of this. A key root cause was the tidal wave of savings that were built up by developing countries benefiting by the pax Americana and Anglo/Confuco economics. This "success" had the contrary effect of knee-capping conservative investments like bonds, whose return rates plummet if in too much demand. Just for survival, conservative bankers from US to Germany tried out weird ways to leverage bond returns higher or weird links into physical assets bubbled up by the global wall of money.

 

I believe one of the biggest drains of the $200 billion US taxpayer bailout of AIG is to cover insurance on German bankers reckless purchase of toxic instruments. Unlike the other bailouts, this one (costing maybe $1000 per taxpayer!) may never be recovered by the gov't since AIG stock is going to zero. German landesbanks in particular did this due to overregulation (not under) making conventional investments unworkable. Another sacrifice of heartland America to it's thankless "empire".

[sylla]

Can any parallels be drawn between the arrogant and condescending attitude of the present day Anglo-Saxons towards the rest of the world and the attitude of the Romans towards conquered peoples ?FV

To get back to Professor Madden, who was cited in the original post:

 

Esteemed university professor and best-selling author Thomas F. Madden presents an intriguing series of lectures based on a fascinating premise: that the United States has more in common with the rising Roman Republic than with the declining Roman Empire. The Tiber and the Potomac explores the amazing parallels between history's two most unusual superpowers. Both nations built empires based on trust, skillfully making friends of enemies.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam. Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[barca]

Although I enjoy Ancient history, I’ve grown tired of the many comparisons between Ancient Rome and Ancient history with modern United States and modern world history. Although some comparisons are interesting and even thought provoking, most are pretentious, tendentious…or just plain silly.

 

 

I agree that some of those examples you posted were far-reaching, but at least they're trying to think about history.

 

What concerns me more is that most americans have virtually no knowledge of history. This knowledge void has allowed certain individuals to make blanket statements about US history that totally ignore our Greco-Roman heritage, and attribute all of our values to "Judeo-Christian" influences.

Edited November 21, 2009 by barca

[sylla]

I agree that some of those examples you posted were far-reaching, but at least they're trying to think about history.

 

What concerns me more is that most americans have virtually no knowledge of history. This knowledge void has allowed certain individuals to make blanket statements about US history that totally ignore our Greco-Roman heritage, and attribute all of our values to "Judeo-Christian" influences.

My own experience is that Americans are not particularly worse than other nationalities on that count.

[barca]

My own experience is that Americans are not particularly worse than other nationalities on that count.

 

 

That may be the case in some instances.

 

Walk into any typical bookstore in the US, and you'll be surrounded by the best-sellers, which could be novels, self-help books, political commentaries, etc. Classical works are to be found as well, but you really have to look for them.

 

This may just be a reflection of the times. However, my experience in bookstores in Barcelona was that the classical texts were much more visible, and appeared to be more a part of mainstream culture.

 

Just my own anecdotal observation

[Artimi]

My own experience is that Americans are not particularly worse than other nationalities on that count.

 

 

That may be the case in some instances.

 

Walk into any typical bookstore in the US, and you'll be surrounded by the best-sellers, which could be novels, self-help books, political commentaries, etc. Classical works are to be found as well, but you really have to look for them.

 

This may just be a reflection of the times. However, my experience in bookstores in Barcelona was that the classical texts were much more visible, and appeared to be more a part of mainstream culture.

 

Just my own anecdotal observation

 

or that each nation is in a different time or era of its development.

 

or that history is considered by some to be baggage.