Viggen Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...s_Carnuntum.jpg the inscription basically says (if i am not mistaken) he died with 58 after serving 34 years in the Legion (from simple horseman to Optio eventually becoming Centurio) 34 years are a pretty long time, right? anyone knows of archaelogical evidence of longer serving soldiers? So Pannonia is leading with 34 years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...s_Carnuntum.jpg the inscription basically says (if i am not mistaken) he died with 58 after serving 34 years in the Legion (from simple horseman to Optio eventually becoming Centurio) 34 years are a pretty long time, right? anyone knows of archaelogical evidence of longer serving soldiers? So Pannonia is leading with 34 years.... No, I don't; but then, we need to check on more military funerary inscriptions. This epitaph is CIL III, 11213: The Latin original : T(itus) Calidius / P(ublii filius) Cam(ilia tribu) Sever(us)/ eq(ues) item optio/ decur(io) coh(ortis) I Alpin(orum) / item (centurio) leg(ionis) XV Apoll(inaris) / annnor(um) LVIII stip(endorium) XXXIIII / h(ic) s(itus) e(est) / Q(uintus) Calidius fratri / posuit The English restoration: "Titus Calidius Severus, son of Publius, of the Camilia (voting) Tribe , an eques (then) optio and decurion of the Cohors 1 Alpinorum, and then centurion of the Legion XV Apollinaris, Aged 58 years, served 34 years died. He lies here. Quintus Calidius his brother put this up". This inscription came from the late I or early II century; its terminus ante quem is 117 AD, when XV Apollinaris was deployed to Syria. The terminus post quem might be circa 80 AD, as it is then when the Cohors 1 Alpinorum (Equitata) is first attested in Pannonia. Calidius' secret was that he served two times; first as a peregrinum in an auxiliary unit, presumably for the 25 years required for acquiring Roman citizenship; and then the remaining nine years as a regular centurion for XV Apollinaris. He was most likely from a local Pannonian family. In principle, it seems perfectly feasible that other Roman auxilia upgraded to legionaries might have served for even longer periods, because: -Calidius first recruitment was relatively late (24 years old). -At least some of them may have survived beyond their sixth decade. Edited April 30, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klingan Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 A very interesting inscription, not uncommonly used as an example. I'd also like to say thanks for a very usefull comment Sylla! I'll be going to the epigraphy museum in Rome rather soon, the chance of finding anything that match this is slim (As I suspect that we would find most elderly soldiers in the provinces), but I'll keep my eyes open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 @ Klingan : there is also the vatican inscription's collection where you might find interesting informations, at least if it's open... Otherwise on the main topic there is also the famous republican soldier who asked the right for veterans to campaign in Greece, as related by Livius. He was also a long serving soldier, but I'd have to find the reference back ( I think it's in Goldworthy's "the complete roman army" but would'nt put my head on the question ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted May 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 thanks sylla for your detailed post, i have a question though you said, -Calidius first recruitment was relatively late (24 years old). that would mean he died while serving? if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended? cheers viggen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klingan Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended? @ Bryaxis Hecatee: I'll put on my to do list I managed to forget the epigraphy today as I saw a nearby aqueduct Are we even sure that 25 years was the time of service (Even as this is what I've always been taught) and what source do we have confirm it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 I really should buy a copy of L'arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) Are we even sure that 25 years was the time of service (Even as this is what I've always been taught) and what source do we have confirm it? Under the republic a citizen might be called upon to serve for twenty years in the infantry; when the legions became permanent the full period was generally exacted, and those who chose to remain after their time was completed, were termed veterani. Augustus, in the year B.C. 13, limited the period of service to twelve years for the praetorians, and sixteen for the legionaries, after which they were to be entitled to an honourable discharge (missio honesta), and to receive a bounty (praemium, commoda missionum); but not long afterwards, A.D. 5, it was found necessary to increase the period to sixteen years for the praetorians, and twenty for the legionaries. At this time it appears probable that the practice was first introduced of discharging the soldiers from the legion at the end of sixteen years, and keeping them together under a vexillum with peculiar privileges during the remaining four years of their service. Abuses, however, crept in, and many soldiers, instead of being pensioned off at the end of twenty years, were compelled to remain for a much longer period, and the discontent caused by such oppression gave rise to the formidable mutinies in Pannonia and Germany, which burst forth immediately after the accession of Tiberius. The soldiers then demanded that the original arrangement by Augustus should be restored, and that they should receive a full discharge and the bounty at the end of sixteen years; while, in order to calm their wrath, Germanicus proposed to put an end to the disorders of which they complained, and to carry honestly into effect the second arrangement according to which they were to serve in the legion for sixteen years, and then being embodied under a vexillum by themselves to be relieved of all irksome labours, and to be required only to face the enemy in the field (Dion Cass. LIV.25, LV.23; Suet. Octav. 49; Tacit. Ann. I.17, 36, the proposal contained in the last passage being in these words: missionem dari vicena stipendia meritis; exauctorari, qui senadena fecissent, ac retineri sub vexillo, ceterorum immunes nisi propulsandi hostis). The vexillarii or vexilla legionum, then, were those soldiers who, after having served in the legion for sixteen years, became exauctorari, but continued to serve in a company with that legion, under a vexillum of their own, until they received their full discharge. Hyginus states the number attached to each legion as usually about hand or six hundred. (courtesy of LacusCurtius) Edited May 2, 2009 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended? @ Bryaxis Hecatee: I'll put on my to do list I managed to forget the epigraphy today as I saw a nearby aqueduct Are we even sure that 25 years was the time of service (Even as this is what I've always been taught) and what source do we have confirm it? Absolutely; this was deducted from the Roman military diplomata. In fact, it seems that the navy required an additional year (26 years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klingan Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Absolutely; this was deducted from the Roman military diplomata. In fact, it seems that the navy required an additional year (26 years). Interesting. I must take a look at one of those diplomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) thanks sylla for your detailed post, i have a question though you said,-Calidius first recruitment was relatively late (24 years old). that would mean he died while serving? if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended? cheers viggen Yes, Calidius died while serving. BTW, he was contemporary to the Dacian Wars of Domitian and Trajan. And the risk exposure for a regular centurion on the field was significant. Honorably discharged auxilia were full Roman citizens, so in principle the same regular service term considerations detailed by Bill Thayer (GPM post) would have applied. In practice, it would have been quite unlikely (although not impossible) that a Roman soldier would have survived almost half a century of service, given their average life expectancy. No more than 50% of the legionaries survived the regular service, even in peace times; besides, the attrition rate increased exponentially with time. Edited May 2, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Neil Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army. ...does Britannia beat Pannonia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army. ...does Britannia beat Pannonia This inscription is R.I.B. 490 from Deva (Chester); Roman-Britain.org indeed states he was from Commagene, but other sources claim he was a Syrian from Osroene. The Latin Original seems to be: D(is) M(anibus) | M(arcus) Aurelius Alexand(er) | praef(ectus) cast(rorum) leg(ionis) XX | [V(aleriae) V(ictricis)] nat(ione) Syrus Os[r(oenus) | vi]x(it) an(nos) LXXII [...] c[...|...]yces et S[ The English restoration (from Roman Britain: A Sourcebook by S. Ireland): "To the spirits of the departed, Marcus Aurelius Alexander, Camp prefect (Praefectus Castrorum) of the Legion XX Valeria Victrix, a Syrian from Osroene, lived 72 years..." It seems his serving time can't be inferred from this inscription. Edited May 2, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army. ...does Britannia beat Pannonia This inscription is R.I.B. 490 from Deva (Chester); Roman-Britain.org indeed states he was from Commagene, but other sources claim he was a Syrian from Osroene. The Latin Original seems to be: D(is) M(anibus) | M(arcus) Aurelius Alexand(er) | praef(ectus) cast(rorum) leg(ionis) XX | [V(aleriae) V(ictricis)] nat(ione) Syrus Os[r(oenus) | vi]x(it) an(nos) LXXII [...] c[...|...]yces et S[ The English restoration (from Roman Britain: A Sourcebook by S. Ireland): "To the spirits of the departed, Marcus Aurelius Alexander, Camp prefect (Praefectus Castrorum) of the Legion XX Valeria Victrix, a Syrian from Osroene, lived 72 years..." It seems his serving time can't be inferred from this inscription. True, we can't determine his service time from the inscription, which is a shame because all we can do is speculate, but for someone to still be serving in the legions at the ripe old age of 72 yrs old is pretty astounding. Marcus Aurelius Alexander must obviously have put some serious time under his belt to reach the position of Camp prefect. Let's just say that he signed up at the same age as Titus Caldius who was 24yrs old, which I think is quite reasonable,that would give him time served in the legions of an incredible 48yrs!!! He could indeed have signed up 8yrs earlier at 16 and that would have given him a service time of 54yrs. Although we will never know I'd like to second NN and put Marcus's name forward for the most dedicated soldier!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klingan Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 When talking about dedication to the army, I believe that we must take into consideration that many of the men who had served for 20 years probably had great difficulties rejoining the civilian life and thus preferred to stay in the army. It's probably not as much a question of dedication as a lifestyle. I'm being such a bore now ain't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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