The pilum bends after hitting a target.

[caldrail]

Doesn't sound right to me, I can't imagine a centurion being lackadsaisical about whether pilum shafts aren't straight. Having said that, the ease of repair is a distinct possibility. A hard shaft might break off whereas a softer one bends. The former needs blacksmith time to replace, the latter a few seconds of cursing and fiddling.

[Maty]

Just tossing in some quotes from Caesar's DBG ...

 

His soldiers hurling their spears from the higher ground, easily broke the enemy's formation. Once that was broken up, they made a charge on them with drawn swords. It was a great hinderance to the Gauls in fighting, that, when several of their shields had been penetrated by the spears and pinned tight together [ this sounds like overlapping shields getting stuck], as the point of the iron had bent itself, they could neither pull the spear out, nor, with their left hand entangled, fight with any competence; so many of them ... chose rather to throw away the shield , and fight unprotected. 1.25

 

on the left wing, on which the twelfth legion was positioned, although the enemy's first ranks fell, transfixed by the pila of the Romans, the rest resisted ferociously 7.62

 

(Note, by the way, that Caesar is pretty casual in using 'pilum' or 'hasta' when describing the weapon.)

[caldrail]

As a small point of interest, the casual use of a descriptive word is typical. In real life, we do the same. It's just that when it comes to studying things we like to apply strict definitions and titles and fill forums arguing over it

Edited March 26, 2009 by caldrail

[Nephele]

Just tossing in some quotes from Caesar's DBG ...

 

His soldiers hurling their spears from the higher ground, easily broke the enemy's formation. Once that was broken up, they made a charge on them with drawn swords. It was a great hinderance to the Gauls in fighting, that, when several of their shields had been penetrated by the spears and pinned tight together [ this sounds like overlapping shields getting stuck], as the point of the iron had bent itself, they could neither pull the spear out, nor, with their left hand entangled, fight with any competence; so many of them ... chose rather to throw away the shield , and fight unprotected. 1.25

 

on the left wing, on which the twelfth legion was positioned, although the enemy's first ranks fell, transfixed by the pila of the Romans, the rest resisted ferociously 7.62

 

(Note, by the way, that Caesar is pretty casual in using 'pilum' or 'hasta' when describing the weapon.)

 

Very interesting, Maty, and I'm looking forward to your forthcoming Legionary: The Roman Soldier's (Unofficial) Manual. That scene described by Caesar of Gauls struggling with unwieldy shields that have been stuck together by Roman spears sounds almost comical. I can picture a Gaul with a stuck shield swearing "aw, F it!" and tossing away his shield.

 

-- Nephele

[caesar novus]

bent pilum by vroma at Budapest National Museum, 1st cent CE

[Eagle]

Well, it is true that the Pila do bend after hitting a target but not all will hit leaving some intact to be thrown back. If the bent ones were thrown back I don't suppose that there was great accuracy with them.

[sylla]

Plutarch attributed this innovation in the pilums's design to Marius during the Cimbrian War.

 

Interestingly, Ammianus attributed Julian

[caldrail]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pilum used in the Cimbrian war used the two-pin style. It didn't have a bendy shaft, but a pivotting one.

[sylla]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pilum used in the Cimbrian war used the two-pin style. It didn't have a bendy shaft, but a pivotting one.

You can read it in Plutarch.

[caldrail]

I would do but I don't have it. All we need to know is whether he specifically mentions a soft iron shank or not. By referring to a 'bending' shaft, it doesn't rule out the twin pin version. I'll dig up Michel Feugeres book on Roman weaponry tonight and see what he says. He uses a lot of archaeological evidence to back up Roman sources.

[sylla]

I would do but I don't have it. All we need to know is whether he specifically mentions a soft iron shank or not. By referring to a 'bending' shaft, it doesn't rule out the twin pin version. I'll dig up Michel Feugeres book on Roman weaponry tonight and see what he says. He uses a lot of archaeological evidence to back up Roman sources.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[caldrail]

It seems the pilum was italian in origin and that it was used very early on as a javelin by legions. The long thin stem is available in archaeological record. Apparently the biggest criticism of the pilum was it's slow flight, which made it possible for enemies to dodge the javelin if they had room and enough wits. I believe Caesar made similar complaints of the gauls. Marius introduced the two-pin style to introduce a tactical advantage to compensate for the pilums failings. His methods weren't universally accepted and the two-pin pilum (which had obvious vulnerability) did not survive against the traditional pilum.

[Legate]

Not exactly history, but it is a pretty regular demonstration on TV documentaries of recreating them and showing how they can bend after hitting shields, at least a shield being moved around in battle. A breakaway approach must have more to do with preventing the pila from being thrown back.

 

Of course a victim can straighten out bends and rethrow, but unless hitting flesh it would probably just bounce off any obstruction. Anyone who has spent time trying to pound in a restraightened nail knows how severely weakened it can be.

 

The only problem with that is that by the time the enemy is trying to pull the bent javelin out, a Roman soldier would be upon him.

 

They were designed to bend with soft medal just behind the tip. The power or force of the throw and the weight of the shaft would ensure the tip would push through the target. Once through, the shaft would bend down.

[sylla]

Just tossing in some quotes from Caesar's DBG ...

 

His soldiers hurling their spears from the higher ground, easily broke the enemy's formation. Once that was broken up, they made a charge on them with drawn swords. It was a great hinderance to the Gauls in fighting, that, when several of their shields had been penetrated by the spears and pinned tight together [ this sounds like overlapping shields getting stuck], as the point of the iron had bent itself, they could neither pull the spear out, nor, with their left hand entangled, fight with any competence; so many of them ... chose rather to throw away the shield , and fight unprotected. 1.25

 

on the left wing, on which the twelfth legion was positioned, although the enemy's first ranks fell, transfixed by the pila of the Romans, the rest resisted ferociously 7.62

 

(Note, by the way, that Caesar is pretty casual in using 'pilum' or 'hasta' when describing the weapon.)

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla