Lucifer

[Lost_Warrior]

Thanks for the link Nephele.

 

Not wanting to get too far off into the modern side of things, but I don't think Luciferians actually equate Lucifer with Satan, do they?

[CiceroD]

Luciferism, Satanism, and other NRMs regardless of belief seem to raise the feeling of taboo that Christianity did in Ancient Rome. Always good to remind oneself!

 

BTW I recall someone mentioning that Lucifer became associated with Satan through that particular passage and with a Medieval understanding of Ancient Texts it became a poetic name for the prince of darkness when it was scary to mention the actual name...

 

Besides as I gather Early Christians did believe that Apollo, Jupiter, Lucifer etc etc were real.... just that they were demons leading men into sin.

[Nephele]

Thanks for the link Nephele.

 

Not wanting to get too far off into the modern side of things, but I don't think Luciferians actually equate Lucifer with Satan, do they?

 

It's hard to know exactly what the hell (pun intended) they believe, as you ask two or three different groups of Luciferians and you can get two or three different answers. The Luciferians I knew did equate Lucifer with Satan -- they sort of reinvented Satan as a benevolent god and "light-bringer" to mankind.

 

I always (privately) called them "Christian Satanists" -- because of their warm, fuzzy view of Lucifer/Satan.

 

-- Nephele

P.S. I just had a look at Aradia: The Gospel of the Witches again, and I see that Lucifer is mentioned in the very first chapter:

 

Diana greatly loved her brother Lucifer, the god of the Sun and of the Moon, the god of Light (Splendor), who was so proud of his beauty, and who for his pride was driven from Paradise.

 

Diana had by, her brother a daughter, to whom they gave the name of Aradia [i.e. Herodias].

[Lost_Warrior]

Ah, so THAT is where the lyrics to "Aradia" (Inkkubus Sukkubus) come from!! I can appreciate the song much more since i know there is at least SOME basis in actual mythology.

 

Of all of the Satanists I've known, I don't think two of them believed the same thing.

[Nephele]

Ah, Inkubus Sukkubus...

 

Since we've taken this a bit off-topic, if you want to continue this discussion, we can go to my blog. LW, I've credited you there with having inspired my latest goth-a-gramming entry.

 

-- Nephele

[gentleexit]

The Romans (and others) knew the one planet Venus was Lucifer and Vesper. It didn't stop the popular naming. Orators liked the pairing - I think Constantine and his father-in-law were likened to the two in a speech.

 

The bible "Lucifer" is from Jerome's Vulgate I seem to remember. Hence Lucifer the devil. It's funny to read of those Bishop Lucifers in the fourth century before Jerome did a "Hitler" on the name.

[Lost_Warrior]

There was even a Saint Lucifer. (I find that especially amusing).

[Nephele]

There was even a Saint Lucifer. (I find that especially amusing).

 

It's amusing, but not at all surprising that a 4th century Roman saint (who was also one of those bishops mentioned by gentleexit) might have the name of "Lucifer," considering that Lucifer was a Roman cognomen.

 

The Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum contains 53 freeborn Roman men, 6 slaves/freedmen, and 9 Christian men with the name of "Lucifer." There are also to be found in the CIL 15 freeborn Roman women, 2 slaves/freedwomen, and 3 Christian women with the feminine form of this name: "Lucifra." (source: Iiro Kajanto, The Latin Cognomina).

 

-- Nephele

[Ursus]

This is getting off topic, but as someone who is involved in "alternative religions" ....

 

There are schools of so-called Satanism that see Satan as more a symbol, or psychological archetype, than a spiritual being. Most of these Satanists are functionally atheists, although you will find some that actually believe in Satan as a god/spirit/demon. Anyway ....

 

What they see in the symbol of Satan is a rebellion against what they perceive as the hypocrisy of organized religion, specifically Christianity. To them Satan represents carnal and material indulgence among consenting adults, as opposed to the "mortifying the flesh" mentality of some religions.

 

If Satan represents bodily desires (sex, food, money, etc), then to some Lucifer represents the more intellectual aspect. Rather than a carnal rebellion, they prefer an intellectual rebellion. Consenting adults should be free to think, explore, study, and articulate differing mental landscapes. They would agree with certain schools of Gnosticism that see the snake in the garden of Eden as a hero rather than a villain; by providing Adam and Eve with the fruit of knowledge, men escaped the child like ignorance imposed upon them by the Monotheist deity. Much like Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, Lucifer forced mankind to grow up and become thinking beings.

 

Most Satanists revere both Satan and Lucifer - both carnal and intellectual fulfillment - it is just a matter of which they choose to emphasize.

 

Given their beliefs - that consenting adults should be free to indulge themselves - many of them are Libertarians, or otherwise opposed to the Establishment.

 

And, dear Nephele, many of them are also Goths. ;-)

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the link Nephele.

 

Not wanting to get too far off into the modern side of things, but I don't think Luciferians actually equate Lucifer with Satan, do they?

 

It's hard to know exactly what the hell (pun intended) they believe, as you ask two or three different groups of Luciferians and you can get two or three different answers. The Luciferians I knew did equate Lucifer with Satan -- they sort of reinvented Satan as a benevolent god and "light-bringer" to mankind.

 

I always (privately) called them "Christian Satanists" -- because of their warm, fuzzy view of Lucifer/Satan.

 

--

[Nephele]

Nicely put, Ursus. As one who used to be a moderator for three different Satanism/occult discussion boards at various times, and who has Satanist acquaintances off-line as well, I concur with most of what you wrote here. There, my dark secret is out -- although I am not a member of any Satanist organization, nor am I an occultist. By the same token, I've been a contributing member of a high-profile strippers' forum, too, and I'm not a stripper.

 

And, dear Nephele, many of them are also Goths. ;-)

 

There are those who are, although you will find a vast number of goths who prefer to disassociate themselves from anything to do with Satanism. On the other hand, British journalist Gavin Baddeley, who is highly placed in the Church of Satan (and who was a contributing member of one of my old Satanism discussion boards), happens to be the author of Goth Chic: A Connoisseur's Guide to Dark Culture.

 

It should be noted that members of the Church of Satan do not recognize other Satanist organizations, including the so-called Luciferians.

 

-- Nephele

[Caesar CXXXVII]

and I'm not a stripper.

 

 

Me too .

 

 

BTW There is the possibilty that the Christian belife about Lucifer as an angel who rebelled against God came from the Greek mythology about pathon (?) who had crashed to the ground (my English) after trying to ride his father (the Sun god) chariot etc' and from the story of Hephaestus who was thrown to Earth by Zeus . (Sorry if it was mentioned before) .

Edited February 17, 2009 by Caesar CXXXVII

[Lost_Warrior]

Thanks for that Ursus and Nephele (I'm still reading I just don't have anything to add.)

 

Caesar, that's an interesting thought about Phaeton. (At least in some sources, Phaeton is the son of Helios, not Apollo. That's an interesting subject as well.)

[Guest A2Jturkmah]

A quote from the Bible which might be relevant here - Isaiah 14.12 'How are thou fallen Lucifer, son of the morning.' I'm not a Bible scholar, but this suggests that Lucifer the light-bringer is also known to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

If there levels of angels, Lucifer was the highest. This is why he was referred to as the Morning Star. After he tried to take over heaven, God threw him from heaven and he took the name Satan or serpent.

[Ursus]

If there levels of angels, Lucifer was the highest. This is why he was referred to as the Morning Star. After he tried to take over heaven, God threw him from heaven and he took the name Satan or serpent.

 

I believe in the original Jewish theology, Satan means "Adversary" referring to his role as a kind of prosecutor in Jehovah's heavenly court (as in Job), not the sworn enemy of all that is Holy.

[The Roadie]

A quote from the Bible which might be relevant here - Isaiah 14.12 'How are thou fallen Lucifer, son of the morning.' I'm not a Bible scholar, but this suggests that Lucifer the light-bringer is also known to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

In the Hebrew bible (Yisheyah 14:12), though, your Lucifer is called "Heylel ben Shachar" ("shining son of the morning"). And I believe the reference is to Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon -- not to any Roman deity. (I'm not a bible scholar, either, but I am familiar with the Jewish bible. )

 

Just something else to add regarding Lucifer: Modern-day Luciferianism is an offshoot of modern-day Satanism. One major difference between the two being that the theistic Luciferians view Satan/Lucifer as an actual, benevolent god. Whereas the atheistic Church of Satan views Satan as merely an archetype representing human will, passion, etc.

 

Lost Warrior, here's a link to Charles G. Leland's 1899 work titled Aradia: or, the Gospel of the Witches:

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/aradia/index.htm

 

If I'm remembering correctly, you'll find one legend of Lucifer in there, referring to Lucifer as being the brother of Diana, according to this old sect of Italian witchcraft. But it's been a long time since I read this, so I suggest you check it out for yourself.

 

-- Nephele

 

The morning star is the name for Venus, who was the Roman name for Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love. In that sense, Lucifer was indeed a Roman deity, though not one which we would expect. Prometheus in Greek mythology had some Luciferian aspects as well, though he was hailed as a bringer of reason and knowledge to mankind (the serpent in Jewish mythology was blasted for being a bringer of reason and knowledge as well).