Frequency of Christian crimes against the state

[Lost_Warrior]

I've found in various places that the Christians in Rome were rarely prosecuted for their religious affiliation, but that they were prosecuted at times because of crimes that they committed against the state in the name of Christianity.

 

What were these crimes and how often did they tend to occur?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, LW

I've found in various places that the Christians in Rome were rarely prosecuted for their religious affiliation, but that they were prosecuted at times because of crimes that they committed against the state in the name of Christianity.

 

What were these crimes and how often did they tend to occur?

Can you identify some of those places?

(specially if they are accesible online).

[Lost_Warrior]

This post by Northern Neil is what springs immediately to my mind. I know I've heard it elsewhere but I would have to go searching as to where.

 

I actually wonder if NN is still around here? I haven't seen him in a while. I'd like to have his input on this.

[Northern Neil]

This post by Northern Neil is what springs immediately to my mind. I know I've heard it elsewhere but I would have to go searching as to where.

 

I actually wonder if NN is still around here? I haven't seen him in a while. I'd like to have his input on this.

I'm still here! Even though the house move is over, there are still lots of loose ends to tie up, so I haven't been posting quite as regularly. Here is a quote from a post on that particular thread:

Interestingly enough, a group of Christians sometime in the third century approached the governor of Bithynia et Pontus, stating that, as they were Christians, they begged to be put to death to effect their martyrdom. The governor replied that he was too busy, but there were cliffs and ropes in abundance throughout the province if they wanted to do it themselves.

 

It seems that, among literalist Christians in The second and third centuries, there was a desire to 'out martyr' ones friends and co-religionists ( the sin of pride, perchance?). Often crimes such as despoiling of temples and monuments were committed in order to effect that martyrdom. If that were not the case, the Romans would not have undergone the trouble of sporadically outlawing them and treating them as criminals. I am away at friends at present, once reunited with my books I will be happy to provide references, if required. I find the whole subject of the Christian Persecutions interesting, especially the religious propaganda which was woven around the subject in late Roman times, and which persists today.

[Lost_Warrior]

Woo! You're back!!!

 

I would love to have some references for that. This came up in another group that I am a member of, and I have been busily doing some searching on the subject.

[Ursus]

There is No Crime for Those Who Have Christ would be a relevant book to read on this subject. Not always interesting, but rather factual. The title alone gives you a clue to the mentality of these ancient religious terrorists.

 

The early Christians did indeed go out of their way to provoke the Roman state, because they believed if they died in service of their beliefs it would gain them salvation.

[Lost_Warrior]

That sounds like a fascinating book Ursus. I'll have to look that one up. Thanks!

 

The early Christians did indeed go out of their way to provoke the Roman state, because they believed if they died in service of their beliefs it would gain them salvation.

 

I suppose some things never change, and modern radical sects are doing similar things today.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

 

We can always begin HERE

Edited December 1, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[gentleexit]

Impiety was a crime - after all if the gods turned on Rome, where would she be? So a refusal to respect them or the genius of the emperor was not only seditious in itself, but dangerous in general. The "martyr" stories always start with refusal to show respect to tradition.

 

I think the best and rawest catalog of these stories is Eusebius' "The Martyrs of Palestine" (I have it here: http://www.conorpdowling.com/library/euseb...s-of-palestine). It's good because it is early - later accounts of martyrs talk up the miraculous and the unfairness, but here's a Christian apologist talking about what he saw during the great (and only organized?) persecution, Diocletian's (who ruled as one of four co-emperors).

 

Right from the start, you get a look at the seditious side of these witnesses for God:

"The first of the martyrs of Palestine was Procopius, who, before he had received the trial of imprisonment, immediately on his first appearance before the governor's tribunal, having been ordered to sacrifice to the so-called gods, declared that he knew only one to whom it was proper to sacrifice, as he himself wills. But when he was commanded to offer libations to the four emperors, having quoted a sentence which displeased them, he was immediately beheaded. The quotation was from the poet: The rule of many is not good; let there be one ruler and one king".

 

The notion of country, loyalty was central. One man was asked his country said "Jerusalem was his country, meaning that of which Paul says,

[The Roadie]

There is No Crime for Those Who Have Christ would be a relevant book to read on this subject. Not always interesting, but rather factual. The title alone gives you a clue to the mentality of these ancient religious terrorists.

 

The early Christians did indeed go out of their way to provoke the Roman state, because they believed if they died in service of their beliefs it would gain them salvation.

 

Interestingly enough, Falun Gong is feeding off the same principle. According to that belief, if you provoke someone to persecute you, you'll get karma from that someone and could possibly reach heaven.

[Tribunicus Potestus]

Salve, LW

I've found in various places that the Christians in Rome were rarely prosecuted for their religious affiliation, but that they were prosecuted at times because of crimes that they committed against the state in the name of Christianity.

 

What were these crimes and how often did they tend to occur?

Can you identify some of those places?

(specially if they are accesible online).

 

Try Alexandria where the christian mob murdered Hypatia,and burned the great library. If you would like examples have you never wondered why so many stone figures from antiquity have their noses broken? The early christians thought them pagan idols. This is not unique the Roundheads in the english civil war lopped off the heads of the saints in churches and monasteries, because they thought them idolatry. Christian missionaries destroyed idols of the natives in Tahiti and in recent times the Taliban destroyed buddhist monuments that had existed for hundreds of years. Ignorance and intolerance flourishes when the mob (plebs) are in power. Sometimes it is just plain stupidity such as when french troops shot the nose off of the Sphinx. But sometimes it is a systematic program of intimidation.