Leaving the Army

[Furt]

Under what circumstances could a legionary leave the army apart from serving his time?

 

Could he be thrown out and if so would he likely be enslaved or sentenced to death?

[Ingsoc]

He could defect and of course if he will be captured he will be executed. another way to get an early release is if the soldier was wounded so bad in battle that he couldn't serve any more.

[Kosmo]

When Galba was send by emperor Gaius Caesar to reform the army of Germania Superior he dismissed from the army some 6.000 men that he considered unfit for duty (there could have been political distrust as well as military reasons for that)

[caldrail]

Injury is another reason.

 

To be honest I haven't seen any evidence that legionaries could voluntarily opt out of service. If need be, they could ask an officer for leave. Records from Britain suggest as much as half the legion were at times unavailable to fight for various reasons including absence.

 

There was no ejection from the legion in normal circumstances. Punishment for crime or ill-discipline was harsh and sometimes lethal, but any social exclusion never dictated a permanent absence from the unit.

 

It seems the romans took the attitude that once you signed up (in the professional era at least) you had sworn an oath to serve, so serve you shall.

Edited October 22, 2008 by caldrail

[Northern Neil]

Another consideration is that the average legionary came from the lower classes, even though he was a citizen. Therefore, instances of wanting to leave were probably very rare indeed - they were well fed, well housed (when in camp) and had access to medical care and bathing facilities most plebs could only dream of. Indications are that the life expectancy of a legionary, even taking into account battles, was significantly higher than that of an ordinary citizen. A camp prefect serving at Deva (chester) lived into his seventies according to his tombstone, and died in harness. So he liked it that much, he must have signed up for a second or even third term!

[Furt]

I know it is only a movie, but I was wondering about the chariot scene in Gladiator when Maximus asks if any men served under him in so and so, and he gets a positive response (or something along those lines).

 

What are legionary soldiers doing in the arena - I doubt they've served their term? Any thoughts if this situation could be possible?

[Northern Neil]

I know it is only a movie, but I was wondering about the chariot scene in Gladiator when Maximus asks if any men served under him in so and so, and he gets a positive response (or something along those lines).

 

What are legionary soldiers doing in the arena - I doubt they've served their term? Any thoughts if this situation could be possible?

I think he actually said 'Anyone been in the Army?' so they wouldn't have neccessarily served under him, given that at this time Rome had some thirty legions and Maximus commanded four. Criminals were often sentenced to die in the arena; also, some citizens voluntarily fought in the arena to earn an income, so there could be a number of reasons why ex-soldiers were with maximus in that scene. But as you say, it is only a movie.

[Furt]

OK - then is there any feasible reasons why a legionary would travel to Rome while still in the army?

[Ingsoc]

OK - then is there any feasible reasons why a legionary would travel to Rome while still in the army?

 

He could be on an approved vacation from the army.

 

But really it's just a movie (and a crappy one in my opinion) it's pointless to try to make sense of it's historically.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Ingsoc

[caldrail]

Another consideration is that the average legionary came from the lower classes, even though he was a citizen. Therefore, instances of wanting to leave were probably very rare indeed - they were well fed, well housed (when in camp) and had access to medical care and bathing facilities most plebs could only dream of. Indications are that the life expectancy of a legionary, even taking into account battles, was significantly higher than that of an ordinary citizen. A camp prefect serving at Deva (chester) lived into his seventies according to his tombstone, and died in harness. So he liked it that much, he must have signed up for a second or even third term!

Camp Prefects were long-timers by and large, as the job was usually given to senior centurions as a reward for long service. Centurions were under no obligation to retire, seeing as they were fundamental to discipline and leadership. The rank and file were a different class. Its true the legions gave them some benefits - important ones for the standards of the time - but legionaries were not molly-coddled at all. Camp life was harsh at times and any man idle in the barracks would soon find himself on fatigues (although I accept things tended to become lax during peacetime). Legionaries were notorious for bad behaviour, and one aspect of this (as soldiers have always done) is to avoid onerous duty. Bribery after all was endemic in the legions. So in fact there is every motivation for a legionary to be somewhere else. There are plenty of records and requests survivng, many from Vindolanda, which demonstrate how often leave was granted to ordinary soldiers.

Edited October 23, 2008 by caldrail

[caldrail]

I know it is only a movie, but I was wondering about the chariot scene in Gladiator when Maximus asks if any men served under him in so and so, and he gets a positive response (or something along those lines).

 

What are legionary soldiers doing in the arena - I doubt they've served their term? Any thoughts if this situation could be possible?

 

This strains credibility a little. Men who volunteered or were coerced to fight in the arena were either slaves or criminals - scumbags socially, although the few succesful ones became celebrities as gladiatorial combat grew in importance.

 

Therefore a soldier in the arena is an ex-soldier. Since legionaries did not leave the service voluntarily (could they buy themselves out? I have no evidence of that) and that soldiers were disciplined internally, it would have to be men who once belonged to a disgraced and disbanded legion - that didn't happen every day. Alternatively, a soldier might have been subject to civil law for criminal activity whilst away from his unit (On leave? In civvies?) and found himself condemno ad gladius. Not a true professional gladiator then, just a participant in a spectacularum. Cannon fodder for the crowds pleasure.

 

I do seem to remember that Caesar had the central barrier of the Circus removed and had soldiers fight a mock battle for the crowds entertainment, elephants and all. I don't know off hand whether they were serving legionaries, and if so, it set an extraordinary precedent that wasn't often repeated.

[Northern Neil]

But really it's just a movie (and a crappy one in my opinion) it's pointless to try to make sense of it's historically.

Well, to be fair, from my point of view it had its good bits. The computer models of Roman buildings were in my view excellent. But yes, I would not try to make too much sense of the plot historically - or geographically. I do not believe that taiga forest extends as far south as the danube, for example.

 

Getting back to topic, we are I believe discussing the imperial period legions, as I can find no reference to people leaving the legions unless they deserted or were invalided out. In the dominate of course it was a different matter. With pay and conditions being less attractive, conscription was widespread, and peasents often mutilated themselves to avoid the 'draft'.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Northern Neil

[Maty]

Getting back to topic, we are I believe discussing the imperial period legions, as I can find no reference to people leaving the legions unless they deserted or were invalided out. In the dominate of course it was a different matter. With pay and conditions being less attractive, conscription was widespread, and peasents often mutilated themselves to avoid the 'draft'.

 

 

Here's an extract from the works of my favourite author in a book called Legionary: the Roman Soldier's (unofficial) guide, coming out in spring 2009

 

Nunc dimittis

You can be dismissed from the army under one of four separate columns in the legion's record books.

 

I. Missio causaria is for those who have injuries that make them unfit for further military service. ... the patient is examined thoroughly before the doctors reluctantly announce that Rome will get no further return for its investment in feeding and training this particular about-to-be-ex-soldier. A misso causaria is an honourable discharge, and carries with it some pension rights related to length of service.

 

II. Misso ignominosa is not an honourable discharge. Quite the opposite. This discharge announces publicly to the world that the army considers the dischargee a bad lot and unfit for even military society ... He is barred from living in Rome or ever taking up an appointment in the imperial service. Whatever crime caused this discharge probably also earned the perpetrator a whipping so severe that he will carry the scars for life as a further badge of shame. (Such a specimen might well end up in the arena btw. Another reason entire armies ended up in Rome is for a triumph)

 

III. Missio honesta is an honourable discharge. This is by far the best column to have one's discharge listed under. You have completed your service to the full satisfaction of your emperor and army, and are entitled to full pension benefits and other privileges that go with being an ex-soldier of Caesar.

 

IV. Mortuus est is the alternative way to leave the army

[Nephele]

Here's an extract from the works of my favourite author in a book called Legionary: the Roman Soldier's (unofficial) guide, coming out in spring 2009

 

Chalk up yet another book I've just added to my Amazon preorder list. Maty, can you give us a few more quick peeks into this latest one of yours?

 

-- Nephele

[Furt]

II. Misso ignominosa is not an honourable discharge. Quite the opposite. This discharge announces publicly to the world that the army considers the dischargee a bad lot and unfit for even military society ... He is barred from living in Rome or ever taking up an appointment in the imperial service. Whatever crime caused this discharge probably also earned the perpetrator a whipping so severe that he will carry the scars for life as a further badge of shame. (Such a specimen might well end up in the arena btw. Another reason entire armies ended up in Rome is for a triumph)

 

I like the sounds of this one. His crime sounds severe enough to be dishonorably discharged but not severe enough to be executed and so would fall somewhere in between? So what would the army do with this individual - surely not just discharge him and then release him on the world? Is it possible he would be enslaved?