Pompey's Lack of Importance?

[Pompieus]

It is possible, perhaps even likely that Labienus was originally a client and protege of Pompey, and simply returned to his original patron when forced to decide between his old and new commanders.

 

Those who have the latin (Syme and Munzer for example) say that names ending in "-ienus" often indicate Picentine origin. The family of Pompey was dominant in that region of Italy. So much so that Pompey could raise three legions there on his own authority to support Sulla. A succesful career for any ambitious soldier from Picenum would probably depend on the patronage of Pompey. When Caesar left for Gaul in 59 BC he and Pompey were allies and Pompey might well have lent the services of his client to his political ally.

[P.Clodius]

It is possible, perhaps even likely that Labienus was originally a client and protege of Pompey, and simply returned to his original patron when forced to decide between his old and new commanders.

 

Those who have the latin (Syme and Munzer for example) say that names ending in "-ienus" often indicate Picentine origin. The family of Pompey was dominant in that region of Italy. So much so that Pompey could raise three legions there on his own authority to support Sulla. A succesful career for any ambitious soldier from Picenum would probably depend on the patronage of Pompey. When Caesar left for Gaul in 59 BC he and Pompey were allies and Pompey might well have lent the services of his client to his political ally.

I agree completely.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here comes the assesment of Mestrius Plutarchus (a devoted Caesarophile, BTW) on Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, previous to his war against Caesar:

 

"It was in the justest manner that Pompey came to fame and power, setting out on his career independently, and rendering many great services to Sulla when Sulla was freeing Italy from her tyrants... Pompey not only continued to hold Sulla in honour while he lived, but also after his death gave his body funeral obsequies in despite of Lepidus, and bestowed upon his son Faustus his own daughter in marriage ... And yet Sulla got no less from Pompey than he gave him... Pompey's transgressions of right and justice in his political life were due to his family connections, for he joined in most of the wrongdoings of Caesar and Scipio because they were his relations by marriage... of their campaigns and achievements in war, the trophies of Pompey were so many, the forces led by him so vast, and the pitched battles in which he was victorious so innumerable... Pompey gave cities to such of the pirates as changed their mode of life, and when it was in his power to lead Tigranes the king of Armenia in his triumphal procession, made him an ally instead, saying that he thought more of future time than of a single day".

 

BTW, here comes A PREVIOUS THREAD on almost the same issue...

 

...an even OLDER THREAD on C. Pompeius Magnus,

 

... and finally THIS ONE.

Edited September 19, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[longshotgene]

I fear if Aesc. keeps pointing out that all of these chat questions are outdated and constantly repeated, then this forum will have little to talk about in the future. I don't mind being reminded that the discussion already exists elsewhere, but maybe someone has something new to bring to light.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, LSG.

I fear if Aesc. keeps pointing out that all of these chat questions are outdated and constantly repeated, then this forum will have little to talk about in the future. I don't mind being reminded that the discussion already exists elsewhere, but maybe someone has something new to bring to light.

Please don't get me wrong.

 

The idea is not to point that it has been all said regarding any topic; that is simply not possible.

 

The idea is to profit from what has been previously considered and debated here at UNRV and to not let such contributions into oblivion.

 

That would be like forgetting our own history; isn't History what this is all about?

Edited September 21, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Ingsoc]

It is possible, perhaps even likely that Labienus was originally a client and protege of Pompey, and simply returned to his original patron when forced to decide between his old and new commanders.

 

Those who have the latin (Syme and Munzer for example) say that names ending in "-ienus" often indicate Picentine origin. The family of Pompey was dominant in that region of Italy. So much so that Pompey could raise three legions there on his own authority to support Sulla. A succesful career for any ambitious soldier from Picenum would probably depend on the patronage of Pompey. When Caesar left for Gaul in 59 BC he and Pompey were allies and Pompey might well have lent the services of his client to his political ally.

 

In his Labienus biography Tyrell seem to agree with this notion that Labienus was from Picenum however from Caesar word (he use to refer to those as approch Labienus as "Inimici" which would indicate they were of the Senatorial faction and not the Pompenian faction) that Labienus abandon Caesar as a result of republicanism, he also note that their seem to have bad blood between Labienus and Caesar.

[Pompieus]

That is a very interesting article on Labienus, it reflects the difficulty in interpeting the shifting, impermanent political affiliations of the last generation of the Republic.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Pompieus

[longshotgene]

Agreed on those points. It just felt like every time someone launched a question that may seem basic, you pointed out the flaws in their logic by showing them how the topic has been argued before. I guess that is the vile aspect of typing things via chatrooms. The emotion cannot be seen behind the responses.

[Maty]

My own feeling is that Pompey was really shaken by the way Sertorius handled him. Having nearly come to grief in a major battle, his response seems to have been to avoid these altogether. This was no illogical response, since it was generally agreed that once two reasonably well-matched armies went head to head, it was sometimes a minor, previously unrecognized factor that proved decisive. In other words, a major battle was a gamble, and Pompey was a good enough general not to have to gamble.

 

Actually, Pompey's ability to win wars without fighting battles places him in the top flight of generals. However, his achilles heel was that he did not only avoid battles because he didn't need to fight them, it was - thanks to Sertorius - that deep down he felt he couldn't fight them. As evidence of this I point to Pharsalus, where Pompey, despite having had Caesar on the ropes several times already, basically flunked it. When things went badly for Caesar, Caesar was able to turn things around (sometimes literally, one standard-bearer at a time), but Pompey, at the first setback withdrew glumly to his tent to await the 'inevitable'.

 

I'd conclude then that Pompey the general was so good that despite what in other generals would have been a fatal flaw, he went from success to success. I'd also assert confidently that in any way apart from fighting battles he was Caesar's equal or superior. The problem is that for a general, winning battles is kinda essential, and Pompey's weakness here was fatal.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, M.

Actually, Pompey's ability to win wars without fighting battles places him in the top flight of generals. However, his achilles heel was that he did not only avoid battles because he didn't need to fight them, it was - thanks to Sertorius - that deep down he felt he couldn't fight them. As evidence of this I point to Pharsalus, where Pompey, despite having had Caesar on the ropes several times already, basically flunked it. When things went badly for Caesar, Caesar was able to turn things around (sometimes literally, one standard-bearer at a time), but Pompey, at the first setback withdrew glumly to his tent to await the 'inevitable'.

Actually, my own feeling is that such "Pompey's ability" is fundamentally pro-Caesar propaganda; then as now, you don't win wars without fighting battles. In fact, C. Pompeius Magnus got more territory, people and money for Rome than CJ Caesar (or any other Roman general of their time, for that matter).

 

Regarding Pharsalus, incredibly as it may sound, we lack any account from the Republican side; we can just rely on the systematically unreliable and biased account from CJ Caesar himself.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, LSG

Agreed on those points. It just felt like every time someone launched a question that may seem basic, you pointed out the flaws in their logic by showing them how the topic has been argued before. I guess that is the vile aspect of typing things via chatrooms. The emotion cannot be seen behind the responses.

My apologies for that.

 

I always thought it was evident that if we came here it was because we were looking for MORE debate, not the other way.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici

It is possible, perhaps even likely that Labienus was originally a client and protege of Pompey, and simply returned to his original patron when forced to decide between his old and new commanders.

 

Those who have the latin (Syme and Munzer for example) say that names ending in "-ienus" often indicate Picentine origin. The family of Pompey was dominant in that region of Italy. So much so that Pompey could raise three legions there on his own authority to support Sulla. A succesful career for any ambitious soldier from Picenum would probably depend on the patronage of Pompey. When Caesar left for Gaul in 59 BC he and Pompey were allies and Pompey might well have lent the services of his client to his political ally.

 

In his Labienus biography Tyrell seem to agree with this notion that Labienus was from Picenum however from Caesar word (he use to refer to those as approch Labienus as "Inimici" which would indicate they were of the Senatorial faction and not the Pompenian faction) that Labienus abandon Caesar as a result of republicanism, he also note that their seem to have bad blood between Labienus and Caesar.

It seems Tyrrell's work (gratiam habeo, PC!) is still the only biography on this intriguing character openly available online.

 

For most of the Time that T. Labienus was under CJ Caesar, the latter and C Pompeius Magnus were close allies (ie, the so-called "first triumvirate"); in fact, Caesar thanked more than once Pompeius' help in his Comentarii de Bello Gallico: then, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if Labienus had at the time a close personal relationship with both generals.

 

As far as I know, T. Labienus was the only one among Caesar's current legates that change sides when the Civil war broke; of his former legates, at least Quintus Tullius Cicero (Marcus' brother) was on the Republican side (he was then serving in Sardinia).

 

Anyhow, regarding at least two other caesarean legates in Gaul (C. Trebonius and S. Sulpicius Galba), even if they remained in CJ Caesar's side during the Civil War, were eventually among the Liberatores conspirators when the dictator was killed (Trebonius was the one who diverted M. Antonius from the crime scene).

Edited September 23, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Pompieus]

Isn't it remarkable that several of Caesars legates were involved in his assasination? Why do you suppose this was? They were not members of the old aristocracy, they were equites, and owed everything to Caesar; and Caesar's loyalty to his friends was well known. Were the less prominent men more loyal to the idea of the Republic? or were they pursuing the "main chance"?

Edited September 23, 2008 by Pompieus

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, P

Isn't it remarkable that several of Caesars legates were involved in his assasination? Why do you suppose this was? They were not members of the old aristocracy, they were equites, and owed everything to Caesar; and Caesar's loyalty to his friends was well known. Were the less prominent men more loyal to the idea of the Republic? or were they pursuing the "main chance"?

C. Trebonius was an equite indeed, but SS Galba was a proud patrician (incidentally, his great-grandson would be the emperor Galba).

 

As well as the other Liberatores, their motives were presumably mixed; some bona fide idealistic nationalism (after all, CJ Caesar was the subjugator of the Roman Republic) with a good doses of personal ambition.

 

After the Ides of March DCCX AUC / 44 BC, Trebonius became proconsul of Asia, while Galba was now the legate of the Martian Legion under Decimus Junius Brutus Albinus, the proconsul of Cisalpine Gaul.

 

Roman politics were always a dirty business, particularly during the Civil Wars of the I century BC.

Edited September 23, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here comes the amazing account by Mestrius Plutarchus (hardly an anti-caesarean source) on Cn. Pompeius' first battles at Axinum and Arsis as a technically illegal legatus (*) against some of the most notorius Marian commanders at DCLXXI AUC / 83 BC (Life of Pompey, cp. VI-VII) while CJ Caesar (two years younger) was resting quietly at home:

 

"After this, Pompey, who was only twenty-three years old, and who had not been appointed general by anybody whomsoever, conferred the command upon himself, and setting up a tribunal in the market-place of Auximum, a large city,a issued an edict ordering the chief men there, two brothers named Ventidius, who were acting against him in Carbo's interest, to leave the city.

Then he proceeded to levy soldiers, and after appointing centurions and commanders for them all in due form, made a circuit of the other cities, doing the same thing.

All the partisans of Carbo withdrew and gave place to him, and the rest gladly offered their services to him, so that in a short time he had mustered three complete legions, and provided them with food, baggage-waggons, carriages, and other needful equipment.

Then he led his forces towards Sulla, not in haste, nor even with a desire to escape observation, but tarrying on the march as he harried the enemy, and endeavouring to detach from Carbo's interest all that part of Italy through which he passed.

 

"There came up against him, accordingly, three hostile generals at once, Carinas, Cloelius, and Brutus, not all in front of him, nor from any one direction, but encompassing him round with three armies, in order to annihilate him.

Pompey, however, was not alarmed, but collected all his forces into one body and hastened to attack one of the hostile armies, that of Brutus, putting his cavalry, among whom he himself rode, in the van.

And when from the enemy's side also the Celtic horsemen rode out against him, he promptly closed with the foremost and sturdiest of them, smote him with his spear, and brought him down.

Then the rest turned and fled and threw their infantry also into confusion, so that there was a general route.

After this the opposing generals fell out with one another and retired, as each best could, and the cities came over to Pompey's side, arguing that fear had scattered his enemies.

Next, Scipio the consul came up against him, but before the lines of battle were within reach of each other's javelins, Scipio's soldiers saluted Pompey's and came over to their side, and Scipio took to flight.

Finally, when Carbo himself sent many troops of cavalry against him by the river Arsis, he met their onset vigorously, routed them, and in his pursuit forced them all upon difficult ground impracticable for horse; there, seeing no hope of escape, they surrendered themselves to him, with their armour and horses".

 

Cn. Papirius Carbo was the Marian second-in-command, a current pretor, has served as Consul two times (including the previous year, and he would serve again the next one); and most important, he had previously fought against LC Sulla himself without having been defeated.

 

L. Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus was one the serving consuls.

 

Was it really so surprising that he became such a huge popular hero and the favourite of LC Sulla?

 

 

(*) He would eventually be retrospectively recognized as such (and saluted as imperator too) by LC Sulla after this deeds

Edited September 23, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES