Jesus from Caesar, Part II

[Gaius Julius Camillus]

Caesar's Messiah, a real life Da Vinci Code, presents the dramatic and controversial discovery that the conventional views of Christian origins may be wrong. Author Joseph Atwill makes the case that the Christian Gospels were actually written under the direction of first-century Roman emperors. The purpose of these texts was to establish a peaceful Jewish sect to counterbalance the militaristic Jewish forces that had just been defeated by the Roman Emperor Titus in 70 A.D.

 

Atwill uncovered the secret key to this story in the writings of Josephus, the famed first-century Roman historian. Reading Josephus's chronicle, The War of the Jews, the author found detail after detail that closely paralleled events recounted in the Gospels.

 

Atwill skillfully demonstrates that the emperors used the Gospels to spark a new religious movement that would aid them in maintaining power and order. What's more, by including hidden literary clues, they took the story of the Emperor Titus's glorious military victory, as recounted by Josephus, and embedded that story in the Gospels - a sly and satirical way of glorifying the emperors through the ages.

 

I am not promoting this, but I am interested to know if anyone has read this, or has any thoughts about the premise itself. Just as with the idea that Jesus was Caesar, this is very interesting material to say the least.

 

LJV

[Ursus]

I try to keep an open mind, but I find the idea far fetched at best.

 

 

If the Romans wanted to create a more placable Jewish sect, they would have gone about it in a much better way: not an apocalyptic cult that spurned traditional Jewish religion and didn't seem to have much use for the world at all. Honor the ways of your ancestors, pay your taxes, follow the laws: that was the Roman way.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Caesar's Messiah, a real life Da Vinci Code, presents the dramatic and controversial discovery that the conventional views of Christian origins may be wrong. Author Joseph Atwill makes the case that the Christian Gospels were actually written under the direction of first-century Roman emperors. The purpose of these texts was to establish a peaceful Jewish sect to counterbalance the militaristic Jewish forces that had just been defeated by the Roman Emperor Titus in 70 A.D.

 

Atwill uncovered the secret key to this story in the writings of Josephus, the famed first-century Roman historian. Reading Josephus's chronicle, The War of the Jews, the author found detail after detail that closely paralleled events recounted in the Gospels.

 

Atwill skillfully demonstrates that the emperors used the Gospels to spark a new religious movement that would aid them in maintaining power and order. What's more, by including hidden literary clues, they took the story of the Emperor Titus's glorious military victory, as recounted by Josephus, and embedded that story in the Gospels - a sly and satirical way of glorifying the emperors through the ages.

 

I am not promoting this, but I am interested to know if anyone has read this, or has any thoughts about the premise itself. Just as with the idea that Jesus was Caesar, this is very interesting material to say the least.

 

LJV

Salve, LJV.

From the Caesar's Messiah Weblog and Q&A, it''s clear Mr Atwill makes many extraordinary claims, that would require extraordinary evidence.

 

Now, let's ckeck this pearl(SIC) (highlighting is mine):

"Q It seems to me that the Christian doctrines espoused, endorsed or championed by Constantine in the 4th century plagiarized Mithraism heavily. Did Titus Flavius, in his fervor to invent the Christian religion purposefully direct Josephus to incorporate Mithraic elements into his satires?

(A) Constantine was a Flavian - his full name was Flavius Constantine - who promoted his family's cult into the state religion of Rome. He was not interested in the form of the religion as much as its effect -- crowd control -- and that would make it unlikely that he would have deliberately attached attributes of other religions to it".

 

Just for the record: the emperor Flavius Constantinus wasn't a Flavian (just check it out).

IMHO, this kind of answer implies either gross ignorance, a blatant distortion of the facts or both.

[Nephele]

Just for the record: the emperor Flavius Constantinus wasn't a Flavian (just check it out).

IMHO, this kind of answer implies either gross ignorance, a blatant distortion of the facts or both.

 

Various pedigrees for Constantine show him to be descended from the Flavians. However, such descent is questionable and requiring confirmation. Even Atwill has admitted that Constantine's ancestory was "an interesting area of speculation."

 

Internet Infidels provide a popular discussion board for non-theistic viewpoints, in which prominent skeptics and atheists participate (such as Richard Carrier, author of Sense and Goodness without God). Joseph Atwill came on board to defend his conjectures and unsupported claims. He was skeptically received, of course.

 

At one point in the discussion, one person accused the board members of "bullying" Joe Atwill, for which he received the following response:

 

However, how in the world are we "bullying" Joe. A guy without credentials, or necessary training, for that matter, who plagiarizes online sites without credit, and then refuses to engage in dialogue because he won't share the details of his book?

 

If I'd known better, I'd consider you a sock-poppet of Joe. But alas, you too are probably just duped by something that sounds new and innovative, not realizing that if you would read the archives, we've been over this before. Joe plays his little game, and then when facing his accounting, he plays the martyr.

 

You can read the discussion "Atwill's Caesar's Messiah" at Internet Infidels (click on link). The discussion ran from November 2006 through March 2007.

 

-- Nephele

[ASCLEPIADES]

Just for the record: the emperor Flavius Constantinus wasn't a Flavian (just check it out).

 

Various pedigrees for Constantine show him to be descended from the Flavians. However, such descent is questionable and requiring confirmation.

Salve, Lady N.

You can say so; the pedigree chart on that link is questionable not so much for being unsourced as for being fictitious; at least C. Suetonius T. said nothing on Vespasianus' purported mate "Arricidia Tertulle" or daughter "Julia Sabine"; not to talk about the obvious dating inconsistencies within the same chart; eg, both the "daughter" and "grandson" of Vespasianus (who died in 79 AD and not in 81 as stated) would have been born in 160 AD (!).

 

Here comes W. Smith Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (SIC):

"CONSTANTIUS I. FLAVIUS VALERIUS, surnamed CHLORUS, "the Pale," Roman emperor, a. d. 305-306, the father of Constantine the Great, was the son of one Eutropius, of a noble Dardanian family..."

[ASCLEPIADES]

Just as with the idea that Jesus was Caesar, this is very interesting material to say the least.

Regarding the opening question:

 

The idea of presenting early Christianity as a conspiracy is hardly new, has a well established market and can become a fantastic business.

 

Even so, it's an extraordinary claim; extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

I don't understand why the Gospels should be considered as "metaphor" of any historical facts.

 

Despite Atwill's claims, metaphorical similarities have no statistical significance; as the similarity criteria are entirely subjective, there's no limit in their number. Your P value simply tends to infinity.

 

Checking on the Caesar's death accounts by Appian, Plutarch and Suetonius on one side and those of Jesus' death by the Gospels on the other, it's extremely hard for me to find any similarities, being them open or metaphorical.

 

On the other hand, I would think the Imperial Cult as a whole may have had a definitive influence over early Christian ideas, for example regarding the Trinitarian doctrine; ie, all along the Principate, any Emperor was divus fili, "the son of god" (his deified father); even if the living Emperor himself was still not a God, he would be predictably deified... after his death.

[johnchem]

Despite Atwill's claims, metaphorical similarities have no statistical significance; as the similarity criteria are entirely subjective, there's no limit in their number. Your P value simply tends to infinity.

 

I have actually read Atwill's book. It's in my library now if anyone needs access to any page. I find it...hysterical and easily refuted, to say the least.

 

Among about a thousand things Atwill has no answer to:

 

Paul. There is general agreement among scholars that the first of his letters was written in the early to mid fifties. Long before Vespasian.

 

Besides, the idea that the Romans created a cult that they kept trying to exterminate is simply laughable.

 

Have a great day, JOhn

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Ave

It's a little hard to understand why the Romans would have wanted to create a cult with an anthropomorphic deity and such a cavalier attitude towards Mosaic dietary and circumcision laws in order to pacify Jews. I think the modern mind still has a hard time comprehending the fact that the fundamentals of Pauline Christianity are totally anathema to traditional Judaic thought. The idea is so laughable I wont even bother examining the "evidence".

It would have made more sense to say that the Romans conspired to create the school at Yamneh and fostered the evolution of modern Rabbinical Judaism, which is far more peaceful and far less Templecentric and apocalyptic than the religion practised by the Zealots.

As in most conspiracy theories, we are treading on shaky ground here.

[Segestan]

Caesar's Messiah, a real life Da Vinci Code, presents the dramatic and controversial discovery that the conventional views of Christian origins may be wrong. Author Joseph Atwill makes the case that the Christian Gospels were actually written under the direction of first-century Roman emperors. The purpose of these texts was to establish a peaceful Jewish sect to counterbalance the militaristic Jewish forces that had just been defeated by the Roman Emperor Titus in 70 A.D.

 

Atwill uncovered the secret key to this story in the writings of Josephus, the famed first-century Roman historian. Reading Josephus's chronicle, The War of the Jews, the author found detail after detail that closely paralleled events recounted in the Gospels.

 

Atwill skillfully demonstrates that the emperors used the Gospels to spark a new religious movement that would aid them in maintaining power and order. What's more, by including hidden literary clues, they took the story of the Emperor Titus's glorious military victory, as recounted by Josephus, and embedded that story in the Gospels - a sly and satirical way of glorifying the emperors through the ages.

 

I am not promoting this, but I am interested to know if anyone has read this, or has any thoughts about the premise itself. Just as with the idea that Jesus was Caesar, this is very interesting material to say the least.

 

LJV

 

 

 

 

No chance of this theory being correct. The Roman Emperors were Already Gods. They didn't need to cleverly seek out any religious cult to make that claim. It's just pure nonsense.

[caldrail]

If the emperors were already gods, why were they deified (or not) on an individual basis by an act of senate? The imperial cult isn't even a demi-god rather than living god status, and I don't see any evidence that the romans believed their emperors had divine power (at least apart from one or two emperors themselves). We have therefore an official 'cult of personality', used to reinforce loyalty to the one man who called the shots.

[Gaius Julius Camillus]

This turned out to be a very good thread, and I thank everyone who responded and offered their thoughts. Its why I love this site.

[The Roadie]

It sounds too modern for the Romans. More like something a modern government which is restrained by constitutional limits would try to do (and have done under certain circumstances). It is even less believable than the theories that Al Qaeda somehow are created by the CIA.

 

Personally, I think that christianity was used as a veil for an attempt to apply the platonic ideal on the world. Feudal Europe very much resembled the platonic ideal society, with a caste of literate philosopher kings (priests) controlling everything and trying to control progress.

Edited June 6, 2010 by The Roadie