What did the Greeks ever do for the Romans?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

The unavoidable sequel of a previous related thread.

Edited December 4, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Faustus]

The gift of the Greeks to Romans

I

[Ursus]

If the Roman elite has not adopted strands of Hellenistic culture, Rome would still have had a historical impact as the power that united three continents for centuries of relative peace under its soldiers, laws and roads.

 

But the fact that educated Romans, and provincial notables who were to become Romans in time, did adopt strands of Hellenic culture seems to me to have ennobled Rome from a simple imperial power into a cultural power - bringing the uplifting culture of the East into the formerly savage lands of Western Europe.

 

 

I try to think of a Europe without Hellenism and its arts. A world of Celtic and Germanic barbarians living in hill forts, not cities as we know it. A world of crude geometric art rather than life like marble statues. A world of oral poetry rather than written history. A world where Aristotle had not inspired the scientific method. It is quite horrid to contemplate.

[Emperor Goblinus]

If the Roman elite has not adopted strands of Hellenistic culture, Rome would still have had a historical impact as the power that united three continents for centuries of relative peace under its soldiers, laws and roads.

 

But the fact that educated Romans, and provincial notables who were to become Romans in time, did adopt strands of Hellenic culture seems to me to have ennobled Rome from a simple imperial power into a cultural power - bringing the uplifting culture of the East into the formerly savage lands of Western Europe.

 

 

I try to think of a Europe without Hellenism and its arts. A world of Celtic and Germanic barbarians living in hill forts, not cities as we know it. A world of crude geometric art rather than life like marble statues. A world of oral poetry rather than written history. A world where Aristotle had not inspired the scientific method. It is quite horrid to contemplate.

 

While I see what you're getting at, and while the world would definitely be more empty without Greco-Roman culture, whose to say that those Celts and Germans wouldn't have been able to create their own separate cultural legacies that might have become something just as advanced as what the Greeks and Romans created? A Europe without classical culture would definitely have been radically different, but whose to say that it would have necessarily been doomed to perpetual barbarism?

[Ursus]

While I see what you're getting at, and while the world would definitely be more empty without Greco-Roman culture, whose to say that those Celts and Germans wouldn't have been able to create their own separate cultural legacies that might have become something just as advanced as what the Greeks and Romans created? A Europe without classical culture would definitely have been radically different, but whose to say that it would have necessarily been doomed to perpetual barbarism?

 

It's probably a topic in its own right, but I'm skeptical the Northern tribes could have developed a culture as advanced as the Hellenistic world, due to their differing cultural values and experiences.

[Emperor Goblinus]

While I see what you're getting at, and while the world would definitely be more empty without Greco-Roman culture, whose to say that those Celts and Germans wouldn't have been able to create their own separate cultural legacies that might have become something just as advanced as what the Greeks and Romans created? A Europe without classical culture would definitely have been radically different, but whose to say that it would have necessarily been doomed to perpetual barbarism?

 

It's probably a topic in its own right, but I'm skeptical the Northern tribes could have developed a culture as advanced as the Hellenistic world, due to their differing cultural values and experiences.

 

It might have taken a bit longer, but it's not impossible. There have been a number of non-hellenic ancient civilizations which were as advanced as the Greeks and Romans, such as the Chinese, Persians, the Kingdom of Kongo, and the Aztecs. I don't see why the northern Europeans might not developed their own advance cultures. If I'm not mistaken, right before being by Rome, Gaul and Britain were starting to progress. Although they moved along more rapidly as Roman subjects, I think that it's somewhat sad that they weren't allowed to develop their own unique cultures. Gaul especially seemed to have potential.

[Ursus]

It's interesting to speculate on what-ifs and might-have-beens. But it's hard to argue too seriously on alternative realities. The fact is that the cities of Hellas gave the Western world most of its arts and sciences at a time when the Germans were scratching around in the dirt and calling it a culture. Even if the barbarians were to someday build an advanced culture, the Greeks already had one, and the Romans thankfully adopted strands of it, thus ennobling what we call Western Civilization.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Yes, it's possible that the northern barbarians might have developed advanced mathematics, science, logic, systematic philosophy, constitutional government, secular theater, written literature, and naturalism in sculpture. But they didn't. The Greeks did, and their trading colonies all over the Mediterranean world spread Greek culture to -- among other people -- Italic war bands. Of these Italic tribes, the ones that adopted Greek ways more -- like the Etruscans -- came out ahead of those -- like the Samnites -- who were less influenced by Greek culture. The same process was also occurring outside Italy (e.g., Massilia), so it seems far more likely to me that Greek culture would have been adopted by the barbarians before it was re-invented by them.

 

Also, as much as I love the Greeks, I don't see the Romans as being passive in their Hellenization. Roman pragmatism, an admirable openness to adopt whatever worked for your enemies, seems to me to have been a key factor in spreading Greek culture there, and it's why the Romans could even surpass the Greeks in several areas: they were far more open to foreigners and foreign know-how than were the insular Greeks.

[Faustus]

The Greeks did, and their trading colonies all over the Mediterranean world .....

Also, as much as I love the Greeks, I don't see the Romans as being passive in their Hellenization. Roman pragmatism, an admirable openness to adopt whatever worked for your enemies, seems to me to have been a key factor in spreading Greek culture there, and it's why the Romans could even surpass the Greeks in several areas: they were far more open to foreigners and foreign know-how than were the insular Greeks.

If I may you're exactly right on this MPC, and once again you've reinforced (in my mind at least) the overarching importance of "trade" and the special qualities it has to endow humanity with freedom from the very beginning of its history.