Did the roman army use vinegar?

[Chris08]

I was wondering if anyone could confirm something ive heard a few times, and that is that the roman army used to put 1 drop of viniger in every 10 drops of water.

 

Now i have heard various reasons but one specific reason that always comes up is that they would drink every 1000 steps of so, and the viniger kept the water in the body for longer and thus kept the troops hydrated for longer.

 

Anyone got any evidence to confirm this?

[Lost_Warrior]

I've never heard this.

[Chris08]

I've never heard this.

 

to be honest i dont know, im just saying what has been told to me, and i was just wanting to see wether it was truth or not

[Primus Pilus]

I'm not sure about the exact dilution but the Romans drank a sour vinegar wine called posca. Andrew Dalby discusses it briefly in Food in the Ancient World from A to Z

 

Pliny the Elder also discusses the medicinal properties of vinegar in his Natural History Book 23.27. Perseus is notorious for slow and incomplete loads so you may have to click a few times to get there.

[Chris08]

Thank you primus thats helped me alot ill keep them addresses for future reference

[Marcus Caelius]

I'm not sure about the exact dilution but the Romans drank a sour vinegar wine called posca. Andrew Dalby discusses it briefly in Food in the Ancient World from A to Z

 

FWIW, all four gospels speak of the Roman guards giving Jesus "vinegar" during the crucifixion, apparetly as a form of mockery. According to bible.com, vinegar (in the sense of sour/cheap wine) shows up in several places in both the old and new testaments, so it seems to have been pretty common throughout the ancient world.

[Primus Pilus]

FWIW, all four gospels speak of the Roman guards giving Jesus "vinegar" during the crucifixion, apparetly as a form of mockery. According to bible.com, vinegar (in the sense of sour/cheap wine) shows up in several places in both the old and new testaments, so it seems to have been pretty common throughout the ancient world.

 

Indeed. The key point has long been that the act of giving vinegar to Jesus was a slight, when in actuality a drink of vinegar wine would've been considered an act of kindness by most legionaries.

[ASCLEPIADES]

FWIW, all four gospels speak of the Roman guards giving Jesus "vinegar" during the crucifixion, apparetly as a form of mockery. According to bible.com, vinegar (in the sense of sour/cheap wine) shows up in several places in both the old and new testaments, so it seems to have been pretty common throughout the ancient world.

 

Indeed. The key point has long been that the act of giving vinegar to Jesus was a slight, when in actuality a drink of vinegar wine would've been considered an act of kindness by most legionaries.

Psalm 69:

To the Chief Musician; [set to the tune of] "Lilies." [A Psalm] of David.

1 SAVE ME, O God, for the waters have come up to my neck ...

20-22:

Insults and reproach have broken my heart; I am full of heaviness and I am distressingly sick. I looked for pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none.

They gave me also gall for my food, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink

Let their own table become a snare to them; and when they are secure in peace a trap to them.

 

Matthew 27: 47-49

And some of the bystanders, when they heard it, said, This Man is calling for Elijah!

And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, soaked it with vinegar , and put it on a reed, and was about to give it to Him to drink.

But the others said, Wait! Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him from death.

 

Mark 15:36

And one man ran, and, filling a sponge with vinegar, put it on a staff made of a reed and gave it to Him to drink, saying, Hold off! Let us see whether Elijah come to take Him down.

 

Luke 23:36

The soldiers also ridiculed and made sport of Him, coming up and offering Him vinegar.

 

John 19:29

A vessel full of sour wine was placed there, so they put a sponge soaked in the sour wine on hyssop, and held it to [His] mouth.

[Maty]

In response to the original question, the Roman army certainly did use vinegar, though I have only come across it in the context of an antiseptic, in that it was used to clean wounds before stitching.

 

In a different context, a few drops of vinegar in water does indeed work if you are very thirsty. The reason as it was explained to me is that if you drink just water, you can never get enough of the stuff, and end up with a full stomach but still thirsty. Add a couple of drops of vinegar, and something in the brain registers an impurity, and cuts down your urge to drink in case you get a large dose of something bad. It's the same reason that though technically a duiretic (needing more water to get out of the system than it puts in) a beer is better at quenching thirst than just water.

 

I'd be interested to know if there is in fact any documented research on this.

[longshotgene]

On the Christian note. We have a couple of problems with the gospels listed above. One, were any of those guys actually at the crucifixion? Second, what does the original Greek say? I just finished a book called, Misquoting Jesus. Talk about interesting. There are so many parts of the Bible that have been misconstrued to work for a certain society. I would be interested to see if the soldiers really did mock the Christ. After all, he really was not a criminal. Pilate didn't want to crucify him. I highly doubt his troops would have mocked him. I could have seen the Jews mocking him. Also, the three gospels listed. Did any of those guys speak Latin? Remember, the troops serving in Judea would not have been from that area. Would they have spoken Aramaic of Greek? There are a lot of questions to have answered before saying the troops did this.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, L

On the Christian note. We have a couple of problems with the gospels listed above. One, were any of those guys actually at the crucifixion? Second, what does the original Greek say? I just finished a book called, Misquoting Jesus. Talk about interesting. There are so many parts of the Bible that have been misconstrued to work for a certain society. I would be interested to see if the soldiers really did mock the Christ. After all, he really was not a criminal. Pilate didn't want to crucify him. I highly doubt his troops would have mocked him. I could have seen the Jews mocking him. Also, the three gospels listed. Did any of those guys speak Latin? Remember, the troops serving in Judea would not have been from that area. Would they have spoken Aramaic of Greek? There are a lot of questions to have answered before saying the troops did this.

Actually, the four Gospels were quoted above.

 

As with any other account from a sacred text, especially if related with the fulfilment of an ancient text (the Psalm), this story may be taken with a grain of salt by any non-believer.

 

However, if we're not giving credit to the evangelists, it would be far more plausible to just consider Jesus as an actual Roman criminal; because in no other instance have the Romans been depicted as simply innocent bystanders of an execution carried on by them.

Edited August 11, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Antiochus III]

Can anyone tell me how they made vinegar/got it thousands of years ago? If anyone happens to know the history of vinegar and would like to share, I'd love to hear about it. ALSO: some sources say that oats were thought to be weeds until 4000 years ago. Anyone have knowlege regarding this? And finally, is alfalfa native to the Americas? Thanks for knowing about such interesting topics.

 

Antiochus III

[TGeorge]

it would be far more plausible to just consider Jesus as an actual Roman criminal; because in no other instance have the Romans been depicted as simply innocent bystanders of an execution carried on by them.

 

I just registered with this very interesting group. I don't wis to offend anyone. But I thought the traditonal Biblical version of Christ's trial and execution presented the scenario as the Jewish Temple officials felt he was becoming too popular with the Jewish masses, they were concerned about possible Roman retaliation against them in the event of a revolt, and the Romans in this case - Pilate, actually viewed this scenario as just another one of the innumerable and incomprehensible Jewish sectarian religious squabbles.

 

I think its very difficult to analyze why people do things, especially people so far removed from us in time and place. I think it would be VERY difficultto find someone in western society today who could stomach participating in a crucifixtion.

 

Perhaps the individual giving him the vinegar and wine was performing what he thought was an act of kindness, perhaps not. But I recall reading - and I can't remember the source - that Roman soldiers added vinegar to water to keep it from spoiling in whatever they carried water in. I believe this was also done by soldiers in relatively recent times. I defintely recall reading that vinegar was used to disinfect wooden sailing ships in the days of fighting sail. I have also personally used white vinegar as a mild disinfectant in animal cages.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, TG and welcome to UNRV.

I just registered with this very interesting group. I don't wis to offend anyone. But I thought the traditonal Biblical version of Christ's trial and execution presented the scenario as the Jewish Temple officials felt he was becoming too popular with the Jewish masses, they were concerned about possible Roman retaliation against them in the event of a revolt, and the Romans in this case - Pilate, actually viewed this scenario as just another one of the innumerable and incomprehensible Jewish sectarian religious squabbles.

 

I think its very difficult to analyze why people do things, especially people so far removed from us in time and place. I think it would be VERY difficultto find someone in western society today who could stomach participating in a crucifixtion.

 

Perhaps the individual giving him the vinegar and wine was performing what he thought was an act of kindness, perhaps not. But I recall reading - and I can't remember the source - that Roman soldiers added vinegar to water to keep it from spoiling in whatever they carried water in. I believe this was also done by soldiers in relatively recent times. I defintely recall reading that vinegar was used to disinfect wooden sailing ships in the days of fighting sail. I have also personally used white vinegar as a mild disinfectant in animal cages.

With a minimum of respect, you can offend no one; even so, please be aware this is not a biblical or religious discussion forum; religion is discussed as any other issue regarding ancient Rome and its world.

Please feel free to check on the welcome messages and ask the admins anything you like related the dynamics of UNRV.

 

If you scroll up a little, you will find in this same thread the post of Primus Pilus (an admin, BTW) answering the original question, where he mentions the posca (vinegar mixed with water) a common drink of the lower orders among the Romans, including slaves and soldiers on service.

 

Now, the kindness explanation doesn't work for the Christian theologians, mostly because this passage is considered an important sign of Jesus' divinity, as the fulfilment of a biblical prophecy contained in Psalm 69:20-22, where it's evident the use of vinegar is an additional affliction and mockery, as it is also the offering of "gall for my food". (Please check out the post #8 in this same thread).

 

That's why the Latin translations of the four gospels (ie, the Vulgate) don't use the word posca (the drink) but aceto (vinegar) for these passages.

Edited September 15, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Ch

I was wondering if anyone could confirm something ive heard a few times, and that is that the roman army used to put 1 drop of viniger in every 10 drops of water.

 

Now i have heard various reasons but one specific reason that always comes up is that they would drink every 1000 steps of so, and the viniger kept the water in the body for longer and thus kept the troops hydrated for longer.

 

Anyone got any evidence to confirm this?

After all this thread, it's clear the use of posca by the soldiers is well attested, and not only by Plinius; eg, here comes Spatianus, Historiae Augustae, Vita Adrianus, cp. X, sec. II:

 

pacisque magis quam belli cupidus militem, quasi bellum immineret, exercuit tolerantiae documentis eum imbuens, ipse quoque inter manipula vitam militarem magistrans, cibis etiam castrensibus in propatulo libenter utens, hoc est larido caseo et posca, exemplo Scipionis Aemiliani et Metelli et auctoris sui Traiani.

 

"Though more desirous of peace than of war, he (HADRIAN) kept the soldiers in training just as if war were imminent, inspired them by proofs of his own powers of endurance, actually led a soldier's life among the maniples, and, after the example of Scipio Aemilianus, Metellus, and his own adoptive father Trajan, cheerfully ate out of doors such camp-fare as bacon, cheese and vinegar".

 

Even so, I found no evidence in classical sources regarding your quoted details on the mixture proportion ("1 drop of viniger in every 10 drops of water") or administration ("they would drink every 1000 steps of so"); who knows, all these may be urban myths.

 

Vinegar is basically a diluted solution of acetic acid (CH3 - COOH) with some variable additional components ( ie, polyphenolic compounds, amino acids, mineral salts, nonvolatile organic acids and even vitamins); there's no physiological basis for the purported "keeping the water in the body" action.