What did the Romans ever do for the Greeks?

[Minerva]

Basically, almost all that spread Greek culture (Sophocles, Socrates, Phidias, Aristophanes and so on)

 

A little off the topic but on what basis does Socrates enter a list of people who preserved the Greek culture?

1) He deviated from the norm to such an extent that Athens preffered to kill him off than allow him to further undermine the traditional views despite the fact that he was an old man of 70 and therefore likely to die a natural death in a few years time.

2) It was not he but his followers such as Plato and Xenophon who commited his teachings to writing most probably moulding it according to their own views.

[Minerva]

That's not "a list of people who preserved the Greek culture". Those people ARE the Greek culture.

 

 

 

2) Socrates', Plato's and Xenophon's works have all a great impact in our culture, each one on their own; no confusion among them.

Taken in that sense, the most attractive part of Greek culture I must say, but a little limited being Athenian only.

 

 

Plato's and Xenophon's works are definitely their own. But the confusion lies in the distinction. We know Socrates and his philosophy through Plato's and Xenophon's works (leaving Aristophanes' "clouds" out) If both recorded Socrates perfectly they ought to be near identical. Besides we have nothing of what Socrates himself wote. Therefore how exactly do we determine how much of it is Socrates and how much Plato and Xenophn?

I don't deny their importance though, for if all that existed today were Aristophanes' "clouds" Socrates would be just another "pre-socratic" philosopher

[Ursus]

Basically, almost all that spread Greek culture (Sophocles, Socrates, Phidias, Aristophanes and so on) came from the petty turf warf period, not from the imposed unity periods, no matter if the imposers were Roman, Persian or Macedonian.

 

 

And after it's destructive war with Sparta, what did Athens ultimately become? A second rate city clinging to its intellectual past, destined to become at best the University Town for upper class Roman youths. The intellectual torch of Hellenic civilization passed from Athens to Alexandria, a city designed and furnished by a great imperial power. And even there the various struggles between the great Hellenistic powers would end with subjugation to Rome.

 

Yes, Greek individualism and freedom created a certain energy which in turn led to a brilliant century of cultural innovation, but ultimately it led to internecine wars that exhausted mainland Greece and made them easier prey for foreign powers. But we're fortunate the Roman upper classes had the good sense to adopt certain strands of Greek culture, and through them to the conquered territories in Western Europe. Even given the fact that the spread of Hellenization is sometimes overstated, I still can't divorce Greece and Rome in mind as cultural forebears - one the cultural power and the other the political power.

[ASCLEPIADES]

When that destructive war with Sparta ended at 404 BC, Athens had still a considerable intellectual future ahead.

Edited March 10, 2009 by ASCLEPIADES

[Maty]

Road-building perhaps? The Via Egnatia was not in modern Greece, but did give access to Macedonia via Albania. And of course, it offered many Greeks the chance to learn Latin whilst serving as slaves after the Romans had flattened Corinth (Memmius) and Athens (Sulla) as well as a host of minor towns.

 

I'm also less certain about the Romans preserving Greek culture - a lot of this was preserved by the Iranian peoples east of the Euphrates, which is why Aristotle (for example) was re-introduced to Europe by the Crusades.

[Antiochus III]

People constantly rave about the intellectual prowess and democratic institutions of the Athenians (and people usualy mention how "peaceful" they were), but was that really the case? There were some scholars of Athenian heritage, and I suppose that their city was as intelligent overall as the next one, but the only citizens in their democracy were adult males, and many women and others had less freedom than the "oppressive" Spartans, whose system of government arguably was better. And peaceful? The Athenians fought their share of wars, made conquests (or attempted to but their military incompetence led to their defeat in the case of Syracuse), and when the war with Sparta was in full swing, they overthrew their precious democracy for an oligarchy.

 

Antiochus III

[Antiochus III]

I saw that post about Greek vs. Roman methods of water transportation, and I would like to know more of the specifics of how the Romans utilized pressure and lead pipes to move water. Does this mean that at some parts of an aqueduct water was actually going uphill? I thought one needed to use pumps or something to incease water pressure. I would be happy if whoever posted that could reply in more detail. Thanks.

 

Antiochus III

[Faustus]

I saw that post about Greek vs. Roman methods of water transportation, and I would like to know more of the specifics of how the Romans utilized pressure and lead pipes to move water. Does this mean that at some parts of an aqueduct water was actually going uphill? I thought one needed to use pumps or something to incease water pressure. I would be happy if whoever posted that could reply in more detail. Thanks.

 

Antiochus III

 

The Romans used the "inverted siphon" to do that. HERE'S A LINK describing a system of several Roman inverted siphons at Aspendos, Turkey. An inverted siphon will not deliver water to a higher elevation than the source of the pressure at the top of the header tank, but it will deliver water across a valley without an elevated gravity flow aqueduct serving as the "pipe". Today similar systems are used for sewage systems, which could be either sanitary or storm sewers.

 

Inverted siphons by the Romans are probably more common than observation would indicate since some were entirely buried earthworks and not visible to the perception of the untrained eye.

 

Faustus

Edited July 15, 2008 by Faustus

[ASCLEPIADES]

People constantly rave about the intellectual prowess and democratic institutions of the Athenians (and people usualy mention how "peaceful" they were), but was that really the case? There were some scholars of Athenian heritage, and I suppose that their city was as intelligent overall as the next one, but the only citizens in their democracy were adult males, and many women and others had less freedom than the "oppressive" Spartans, whose system of government arguably was better. And peaceful? The Athenians fought their share of wars, made conquests (or attempted to but their military incompetence led to their defeat in the case of Syracuse), and when the war with Sparta was in full swing, they overthrew their precious democracy for an oligarchy.

 

Antiochus III

Salve, A.

I think Athenian intellectual deeds speak for themselves.

With all its limitations, their democratic model was unsurpassed along all Antiquity.

Most of the time, they were hardly peaceful.

[Faustus]

People constantly rave about the intellectual prowess and democratic institutions of the Athenians (and people usualy mention how "peaceful" they were), but was that really the case? There were some scholars of Athenian heritage, and I suppose that their city was as intelligent overall as the next one, but the only citizens in their democracy were adult males, and many women and others had less freedom than the "oppressive" Spartans, whose system of government arguably was better. And peaceful? The Athenians fought their share of wars, made conquests (or attempted to but their military incompetence led to their defeat in the case of Syracuse), and when the war with Sparta was in full swing, they overthrew their precious democracy for an oligarchy.

 

Antiochus III

Salve, A.

I think Athenian intellectual deeds speak for themselves.

With all its limitations, their democratic model was unsurpassed along all Antiquity.

Most of the time, they were hardly peaceful.

 

Salve Amici

 

Is there any reason for the advanced thought of the Greeks in scientific knowledge and political thought as expressed by their experiments in democracy? I have an undeveloped theory, which hinges on the island nature of their environment, the difficult conditions which prevailed, and a paucity of natural resources. All of these limited the exploiting of their environment so that trade and travel combined with exporting new experiments in self governing along with colonization and competition provided outlets for their creativity. These were tried and improved upon repeatedly providing feedback for successful models. I have nothing to back this up except high-blown theory, and I would be hard pressed to explain it; any thoughts on that?

 

Faustus

[Minerva]

(or attempted to but their military incompetence led to their defeat in the case of Syracuse), and when the war with Sparta was in full swing, they overthrew their precious democracy for an oligarchy.

 

Antiochus III

 

It was more political incompetance and terachery than military incompetance that lead to the defeat of the Athenians at Sparta. The Athenian mistakes were:

1. Originally appointing Nicias as genaral and not Demosthenes - Nicias was against the expedition
   
2. Recalling Alcibiades once he had embrked on the expedition to stand trial for sacriledge, confiscating his property and condemning him to death - He turned traitor and informed Sparta of Athenian plans and asked that a general be sent to Sicily to organize a defense
   
3. Not allowing Nicias to return when he asked to be recalled pleading ill health
   

 

Superstition also played a role. The Athenians decided to abandon the Sicilian struggle but delayed leaving Sicily due to an eclipse.

 

And their "precious democracy" was not overthrown " for an oligarchy" "when the war with Sparta was in full swing," It was done following the Sicilian desaster, The fortification of Decelea by Sparta and the closing down of the Laurian silver mines. Things were looking bleak and the Athenian assembly had proed its incompetance to decide on sensitive war time issues e. g the sicilian expeition. A change was felt to be necessary and even then full democracy was re-established within a year.

[ASCLEPIADES]

I saw that post about Greek vs. Roman methods of water transportation, and I would like to know more of the specifics of how the Romans utilized pressure and lead pipes to move water. Does this mean that at some parts of an aqueduct water was actually going uphill? I thought one needed to use pumps or something to incease water pressure. I would be happy if whoever posted that could reply in more detail. Thanks.

 

Antiochus III

Salve, A.

I think you're talking about Klingan.

[Julia C]

[ In his book A History of Private Life

[Faustus]

[quote name='Julia C

Edited July 26, 2008 by Faustus

[Julia C]

Oh, I wasn't speaking about the entire book. I'm still interested in reading it and giving it a fair engagement, but I disagree with the extreme Hellenism of that introduction. He seems to discount the authentically Roman traits that manifested themselves in the Empire; particularly, the hard-headed pragmatism they exhibited.

 

That was a little important, I should think, as that (among other factors) sort of helped Roman civilization distinguish itself from eastern Hellenistic states and gave it a lot more staying power.