How much do you know about the Ancient World?

[DecimusCaesar]

I was watching a documentary about the Hittites recently when I realised I knew very little about them. I thought it was a fact for instance that the Hittite Empire was destroyed by the Sea Peoples in the 12th century BC. The experts on the program on the other hand pointed out that the Hittites destroyed their own capital, Hattusa, during a civil war before vanishing from the history books. The documentary also pointed out that the name 'Hittite' is a convenient term used by archaeologists. The actual real Hittites were a completely unrelated people from the Bible, and the name for the people we call the Hittites was the 'People of the land of Hatti'.

 

The documentary got me thinking about my own ignorance of the ancient world. Despite having read lots of books on the Romans, I still know very little about the other cultures of ancient history like the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, The Hittites, Phoenicians etc.

 

I would genuinely like to know more about them, especially the Babylonians. All I seem to know about the Babylonians is that they were great mathematicians and astronomers, and that they had a code of laws written by Hammurabi, and that they had built the Hanging Gardens.

I know next to nothing about their daily lives, religion, military or culture.

 

Do you lack knowledge on some of the important cultures of the ancient world? Which culture would you like to know more about?

 

On another note, here's the documentary I watched from Google Videos:

 

Dark Lords of Hattusha

[sonic]

Do you lack knowledge on some of the important cultures of the ancient world? Which culture would you like to know more about?

 

I want to know more about all cultures - including Rome. Even as a child my main interest was history. It took a really terrible history teacher to destroy my interest. When I was 14 years old he spent a whole year teaching us about the 'Industrial Revolution in Britain', but in such a boring way that I lost interest in history for 10 years. I'll always regret those 10 years, as I'll never get them back and they could have been used to increase my knowledge.

 

As time is going on, though, I'm starting to get interested in Ancient China. Now there is a culture that invented many things we now take for granted - and I know so little about it!

 

Anybody got any advice on cheap books to get me started???

Edited July 6, 2008 by sonic

[ASCLEPIADES]

I was watching a documentary about the Hittites recently when I realised I knew very little about them. I thought it was a fact for instance that the Hittite Empire was destroyed by the Sea Peoples in the 12th century BC. The experts on the program on the other hand pointed out that the Hittites destroyed their own capital, Hattusa, during a civil war before vanishing from the history books. The documentary also pointed out that the name 'Hittite' is a convenient term used by archaeologists. The actual real Hittites were a completely unrelated people from the Bible, and the name for the people we call the Hittites was the 'People of the land of Hatti'.

 

The documentary got me thinking about my own ignorance of the ancient world.

Do you lack knowledge on some of the important cultures of the ancient world? Which culture would you like to know more about?

 

On another note, here's the documentary I watched from Google Videos:

 

Dark Lords of Hattusha

Salve DC et gratiam habeo for such wonderful link.

What can we say? BBC stands up to its own prestige as documentary maker and culture diffuser.

This film rightly highlights the patience and energy required for both the archaeological and linguistic investigation and their pivotal role in the historical work.

The extent of the architectonic and hydraulic deeds of this culture make me wonder how many of what we regularly consider Roman contributions on those fields really come from far behind in the timescale.

The size of their libraries makes me wonder if some day we will be able to use them as primary sources for the analysis of specific events and individuals, analogous as we currently do with Greek and Latin texts here at UNRV.

The extent of Hattusa's fortifications and its isolation clearly suggest that they have close customary fearful adversaries that were not identified in the documentary.

 

On the other hand, I think the investigators tended to overestimate the subject of their study; if Kadesh was so clearly a Hittite victory, why wasn't Egypt conquered? As far as I know, most scholars tend to consider it more or less a stalemate.

Even if I tend to agree with the investigators, the identity of the biblical Hittites is still a matter of conjecture.

And as virtually all known Empires have had literally hundreds of civil wars, specially for dynastic reasons, the mere attribution of the demise of the Empire to one of such wars seems like an oversimplification to me. As far as I know, the Sea Peoples explanation is still commonly held.

Besides, the Hittites were not so isolated, and a number of neo-Hittite states has been identified.

Finally, the conclusion that an Indoeuropean speaking people MUST have come from Europe (why not Persia, Caucasus or even India?) seems a bit eurocentrist to me

[ASCLEPIADES]

As time is going on, though, I'm starting to get interested in Ancient China. Now there is a culture that invented many things we now take for granted - and I know so little about it!

 

Anybody got any advice on cheap books to get me started???

Salve, S.

 

First of all, be sure you have the adequate software support for Chinese characters.

 

There are literally tons of books and sites on Sinology; you will better be ready to surf.

If you're really a starter, I think HERE is as good as the next one.

 

There's a Chinese member of UNRV (Miguel) that I haven't seen around for some time.

I'm sure she will be more than eager to bring useful suggestions if you can contact her.

[sonic]

As time is going on, though, I'm starting to get interested in Ancient China. Now there is a culture that invented many things we now take for granted - and I know so little about it!

 

Anybody got any advice on cheap books to get me started???

Salve, S.

 

First of all, be sure you have the adequate software support for Chinese characters.

 

There are literally tons of books and sites on Sinology; you will better be ready to surf.

If you're really a starter, I think HERE is as good as the next one.

 

There's a Chinese member of UNRV (Miguel) that I haven't seen around for some time.

I'm sure she will be more than eager to bring useful suggestions if you can contact her.

 

Many thanks for the link: much appreciated.

[Ursus]

I've studied primarily Romans, Greeks and Egyptians. I would say I have the basics covered for most of the rest of the ancient Near East and Mediterranean peoples, though minor cultures like Hittites elude me.

 

Currently when I am not reading up on Rome, I read up on the Hellenistic era - the Ptolemies, the Seleucids, etc. Most of the best scholarship seems to be a generation old.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve Amici.

The Hittites' name for themselves (endonym) was Nesilim.

Their main legal text (circa 1650 BC) is known as The Code of the Nesilim,

I found interesting some implicit information on their slaves' status:

 

1. If anyone slay a man or woman in a quarrel, he shall bring this one. He shall also give four persons, either men or women, he shall let them go to his home.

2. If anyone slay a male or female slave in a quarrel, he shall bring this one and give two persons, either men or women, he shall let them go to his home.

 

3. If anyone smite a free man or woman and this one die, he shall bring this one and give two persons, he shall let them go to his home.

4. If anyone smite a male or female slave, he shall bring this one also and give one person, he shall let him or her go to his home.

 

6. If anyone blind a free man or knock out his teeth, formerly they would give one pound of silver, now he shall give twenty half-shekels of silver.

8. If anyone blind a male or female slave or knock out their teeth, he shall give ten half-shekels of silver, he shall let it go to his home.

 

17. If anyone cause a free woman to miscarry, if it be the tenth month (?), he shall give ten half-shekels of silver, if it be the fifth month, he shall give five half-shekels of silver.

18. If anyone cause a female slave to miscarry, if it be the tenth month (?), he shall give five half-shekels of silver.

 

20. If any man of Hatti steal a Nesian slave and lead him here to the land of Hatti, and his master discover him, he shall give him twelve half-shekels of silver, he shall let it go to his home.

 

21. If anyone steal a slave of a Luwian from the land of Luwia, and lead him here to the land of Hatti, and his master discover him, he shall take his slave only.

 

24. If a male or female slave run away, he at whose hearth his master finds him or her, shall give fifty half-shekels of silver a year.

 

31. If a free man and a female slave be fond of each other and come together and he take her for his wife and they set up house and get children, and afterward they either become hostile or come to close quarters, and they divide the house between them, the man shall take the children, only one child shall the woman take.

32. If a slave take a woman as his wife, their case is the same. The majority of the children to the wife and one child to the slave.

 

36. If a slave convey the bride price to a free son and take him as husband for his daughter, nobody dare surrender him to slavery.

 

98. If a free man set a house ablaze, he shall build the house, again. And whatever is inside the house, be it a man, an ox, or a sheep that perishes, nothing of these he need compensate.

99. If a slave set a house ablaze, his master shall compensate for him. The nose of the slave and his ears they shall cut off, and give him back to his master. But if he do not compensate, then he shall give up this one.

 

170. If a free man kill a serpent and speak the name of another, he shall give one pound of silver; if a slave, this one shall die.

[ASCLEPIADES]

...And indirect information on Nesilim's sexual life too:

 

187. If a man have intercourse with a cow, it is a capital crime, he shall die. They shall lead him to the king's hall. But the king may kill him, the king may grant him his life. But he shall not approach the king.

 

188. If a man have intercourse with his own mother, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a daughter, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a son, it is a capital crime, he shall die.

 

190. If a man and a woman come willingly, as men and women, and have intercourse, there shall be no punishment. And if a man have intercourse with his stepmother, there shall be no punishment; except if his father is living, it is a capital crime, the son shall die.

 

191. If a free man picks up now this woman, now that one, now in this country, then in that country, there shall be no punishment if they came together sexually willingly.

 

194. If a free man pick up female slaves, now one, now another, there is no punishment for intercourse. If brothers sleep with a free woman, together, or one after the other, there is no punishment. If father and son sleep with a female slave or harlot, together, or one after the other, there is no punishment.

 

195. If a man sleep with the wife of his brother, while his brother is living, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have taken a free woman, then have intercourse also with her daughter, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If he have taken her daughter, then have intercourse with her mother or her sister, it is a capital crime, he shall die.

 

197. If a man rape a woman in the mountain, it is the man's wrong, he shall die. But if he rape her in the house, it is the woman's fault, the woman shall die. If the husband find them and then kill them, there is no punishing the husband.

 

199. If anyone have intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment. But he shall not approach the king, and shall not become a priest. If an ox spring upon a man for intercourse, the ox shall die but the man shall not die. One sheep shall be fetched as a substitute for the man, and they shall kill it. If a pig spring upon a man for intercourse, there is no punishment. If any man have intercourse with a foreign woman and pick up this one, now that one, there is no punishment.

[Minerva]

...And indirect information on Nesilim's sexual life too:

 

 

197. If a man rape a woman in the mountain, it is the man's wrong, he shall die. But if he rape her in the house, it is the woman's fault, the woman shall die. If the husband find them and then kill them, there is no punishing the husband.

 

199. If anyone have intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment. But he shall not approach the king, and shall not become a priest. If an ox spring upon a man for intercourse, the ox shall die but the man shall not die. One sheep shall be fetched as a substitute for the man, and they shall kill it. If a pig spring upon a man for intercourse, there is no punishment. If any man have intercourse with a foreign woman and pick up this one, now that one, there is no punishment.

 

 

My inferences are

1) This was a society where sexual deviations and misconduct was rampant.

2) This was a society seriously incapable of logical thought.

[ASCLEPIADES]

...And indirect information on Nesilim's sexual life too:

 

 

197. If a man rape a woman in the mountain, it is the man's wrong, he shall die. But if he rape her in the house, it is the woman's fault, the woman shall die. If the husband find them and then kill them, there is no punishing the husband.

 

199. If anyone have intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment. But he shall not approach the king, and shall not become a priest. If an ox spring upon a man for intercourse, the ox shall die but the man shall not die. One sheep shall be fetched as a substitute for the man, and they shall kill it. If a pig spring upon a man for intercourse, there is no punishment. If any man have intercourse with a foreign woman and pick up this one, now that one, there is no punishment.

 

 

My inferences are

1) This was a society where sexual deviations and misconduct was rampant.

2) This was a society seriously incapable of logical thought.

Salve, M.

 

Regarding #1, sexuality has been always been a complex cultural issue.

It wouldn't be the first time that unexplained conducts from people so alien to us are considered just mental pathology.

Just remember their Babylonian neighbours.

BTW Mental pathology is currently considered by psychologists to be the dysfunctional conduct for you social context.

 

Regarding #2, I personally find quite hard to support such conclusion on a culture so successful in so many aspects for so long time.

 

Or, we may have a serious translation problem, who knows.

Sometimes translation is more than just selecting the right word.

[Minerva]

Regarding #1, sexuality has been always been a complex cultural issue.

It wouldn't be the first time that unexplained conducts from people so alien to us are considered just mental pathology.

Just remember their Babylonian neighbours.

BTW Mental pathology is currently considered by psychologists to be the dysfunctional conduct for you social context.

 

Regarding #2, I personally find quite hard to support such conclusion on a culture so successful in so many aspects for so long time.

 

Or, we may have a serious translation problem, who knows.

Sometimes translation is more than just selecting the right word.

 

I Don't deny it. Maybe these laws made sense to them. Depends on the particular ethos prevalent I guess. Who knows, some of the ancients might think that the U.N charter is nuts.

 

Translations ; definitely. words and meaning are not necessarily the same.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here comes a Hittite text that seems to have definitely made more sense to modern prevalent ethos.

 

 

This is the earliest surviving peace treaty in World's History, the Ramesses (II) / Hattusili (III) eternal treaty, aka the Kadesh treaty, currently most commonly dated to 1258 BC (21st year of Ramesses' reign), here in a clay copy of the lost original silver tablet at the Istanbul Archeological Museum (Bilingual version).

 

A replica of the Treaty is on display at the United Nations Headquarters, at the entrance to the Security Council chamber.

 

The Hittite version begins as follows:

"It is concluded that Reamasesa-Mai-amana , the Great King, the king (of the land of Egypt) with Hattusili, the Great King, the king of the land of Hatti, his brother, for the land of Egypt and the land of Hatti, in order to establish a good peace and a good fraternity forever among them".

[Nephele]

197. If a man rape a woman in the mountain, it is the man's wrong, he shall die. But if he rape her in the house, it is the woman's fault, the woman shall die. If the husband find them and then kill them, there is no punishing the husband.

 

My inferences are

1) This was a society where sexual deviations and misconduct was rampant.

2) This was a society seriously incapable of logical thought.

 

There is nevertheless a backward logic to be found in the above-quoted passage. The logic of the ancient world being that a woman in her own home and within earshot of family and servants would be expected to cry out for help if being raped -- and would remain silent if having an adulterous affair.

 

I couldn't help but be struck by the similarity between the above-quoted passage from The Code of the Nesilim, and the laws of Moses in the Torah which clearly must have been influenced by the laws of the Hittites.

 

If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee. But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-25

 

In answer to the question posed in this topic... like Sonic, I'd like to learn more about the ancient Chinese, as well.

 

I'm presently reading the memoirs of Jung Chang: Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China, which includes a lot of fascinating information on China's ancient history as well as more recent history. For example, the practice of women's foot-binding for the sake of eroticism at the expense of such agony is astounding that it continued as a fashion for a period of 1,000 years. (The author's grandmother was one of the last to have suffered from this traditional practice.)

 

-- Nephele

[ASCLEPIADES]

I couldn't help but be struck by the similarity between the above-quoted passage from The Code of the Nesilim, and the laws of Moses in the Torah which clearly must have been influenced by the laws of the Hittites.

 

If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee. But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-25

 

Salve, Lady N.

 

Wow. Quite cleaver observation.

[Nephele]

I couldn't help but be struck by the similarity between the above-quoted passage from The Code of the Nesilim, and the laws of Moses in the Torah which clearly must have been influenced by the laws of the Hittites.

 

If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee. But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-25

 

Salve, Lady N.

 

Wow. Quite cleaver observation.

 

Why, thank you, Asclepiades!

 

The Code of the Nesilim was something I was not familiar with, until you provided those excerpts here. However, the Torah is something with which I'm very familiar.

 

I was astounded when I noticed the similarity between the two, and it confirmed my already long-held conviction that Moses did not acquire his laws from god.

 

-- Nephele