Electric Fish Used as Ancient Defibrillators??

[Nephele]

Yesterday I visited the New York Aquarium at Coney Island and, right as you're leaving one of the exhibits, there's this kind of faux ancient fresco on the wall with the attached inscription (see close-up in 2nd pic that I snapped):

 

 

 

I never heard of such a thing, but a quick check of the "Electric Ray" entry at Wikipedia turned this up:

 

The electrical shocks of the torpedo fish did not go unnoticed by the ancient Greeks and Romans. Scribonius Largus, a Roman physician, recorded the use of torpedo fish for treatment of headache and gout in his Compositiones Medicae of 46 AD

 

It's kind of a weak confirmation, if any, as treatment for headache and gout hardly falls into the same category as improvised defibrillation for a heart patient.

 

Rather than roll an incredulous eye at the dedicated and justifiably-proud-of-our-fish NY Aquarium folks, I thought I'd ask my fellow UNRV-ers: Can anyone here could provide any ancient sources to confirm the claim that the ancient Romans and Greeks used electric fish as defibrillators?

 

-- Nephele

[Faustus]

Rather than roll an incredulous eye at the dedicated and justifiably-proud-of-our-fish NY Aquarium folks, I thought I'd ask my fellow UNRV-ers: Can anyone here could provide any ancient sources to confirm the claim that the ancient Romans and Greeks used electric fish as defibrillators?

 

-- Nephele

 

If I may, Nephele, not that item directly, but being one who leans toward the theory that the ancients knew much more than we give them credit for. We can

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici

 

I would consider Wikipedia quotation far more reliable than the aquarium note, simply because for using a defibrillator you have to understand what fibrillation is. ie a cardiac arrhytmia (turbulent, disorganised electrical activity of the heart that provokes uncontrolled twitching or quivering of muscular fibrils) that requires a registry (electrocardiogram) for its disgnosis and treatment; in fact, not all cardiac arrests are secondary to ventricular fibrilations as you can have other electrophysiological mechanisms (like asystolia, meaning no electric activity at all) that will not respond to defibrillation.

 

Quick reference at en.wikipedia

 

BTW, it seems you had a nice weekend, Lady N.

Edited June 23, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Nephele]

Thanks, Faustus and Asclepiades (and anyone else who adds to this thread). I'm thinking of sending a link to this thread to the new Director of the NY Aquarium.

 

BTW, it seems you had a nice weekend, Lady N.

 

I did indeed. Saturday was the day of the annual Coney Island Mermaid Parade (New York's answer to New Orleans' Mardi Gras), which was my main reason for heading out to Coney Island. But, of course, a trip to Coney Island isn't complete without a visit to the wonderful NY Aquarium.

 

-- Nephele

[Antiochus III]

I think looking from a modern stand point we could see whether or not it is possible to use electric fish as defibrillators. Just because some source says it happened doesn't really mean much. Maybe they tried it a couple of times and it didn't work, but they recorded it anyway. The point is, you can ask an expert if it's possible to do something like that. My dad is relatively in tune with the aquatic world, and has done extensive SCUBA diving, has taught classes about it, and has considerable knowledge regarding such fish because he has swam with them. I'll ask him about this.

 

Antiochus III

 

 

Edit: also note the "may have used." whoever made that clearly doesn't have a complete grasp on the subject.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Antiochus III

[Nephele]

My dad is relatively in tune with the aquatic world, and has done extensive SCUBA diving, has taught classes about it, and has considerable knowledge regarding such fish because he has swam with them. I'll ask him about this.

 

I'd like to read what he has to say about it. Also, whether the electric fish produces the sort of electricity that (as Asclepiades described previously in this thread) might set an arrhythmic heart beating normally again -- or perhaps make matters worse! I should think that, in the absence of ancient electrocardiograms, the use of an electric fish on an already debilitated patient's heart might more often than not be a hit-or-miss undertaking, possibly resulting in dire consequences!

 

-- Nephele

[DecimusCaesar]

I also heard a similar story about how Romans would give 'electric shock therapy' to patients by making them put their feet in a tub of water with a young electric eel in it. Wouldn't that have killed them?

 

Interesting story anyway.

[Antiochus III]

My dad said there is no way this would have been used.

 

Antiochus III the Great

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

I also heard a similar story about how Romans would give 'electric shock therapy' to patients by making them put their feet in a tub of water with a young electric eel in it. Wouldn't that have killed them?

 

Interesting story anyway.

Electric "eels" (Electrophorus electricus, actually a kind of Gymnotiforme or knifefish) live exclusively in Central and South American rivers, far way from the Roman area; the quotation of Lady N was on the electric rays (order Torpediniformes), probably Torpedo nobiliana.

 

As other strongly electric fishes, both electric eels and rays can get electric organ discharges of up to 500 volts (with a current of up to 1 ampere), so they would possibly stunned but hardly killed any more or less healthy human adult.

 

Lady N's quotation on Scribonius Largus' Compositiones Medicae was about the use of electric rays in the treatment of headache and gout (ie, pain), presumably mostly via placebo effect (ie, suggestion and allied phenomena), as most (if not all) the so-called "alternative medicines" do.

Edited September 1, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, A III

quote name='Antiochus III' date='Aug 31 2008, 09:04 PM' post='88644']

My dad said there is no way this would have been used.

 

Antiochus III the Great

With all due respect, it seems your dad really knows what he's talking about.

[Nephele]

Okay, today I sent the following letter off in e-mail to Fran Hackett, Public Relations Manager for the New York Aquarium:

 

Dear Ms. Hackett,

 

As a frequent visitor to the New York Aquarium (I'm a Wildlife Conservation Society member) I'd like to say that I enjoy the many wonderful exhibits. Cheers for your new director, Jon Dohlin, as well!

 

However, I have to bring something to Mr. Dohlin's attention regarding the Aquarium, that is disturbing in that it appears to be misinformation being passed off to the public as something educational.

 

Outside one of your exhibits you have a huge faux ancient fresco on the wall with a plaque titled "A Shocking Story," claiming that the ancient Greeks and Romans used to lay electric rays on the chests of heart patients "like modern-day defibrillators."

 

I am a member of a Roman history discussion board on the 'net (UNRV.com), and I brought this to the attention of our members. You can read our discussion here:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8701&hl=

 

The consensus of opinion is that, while electric fish may have been used for some medical purposes, it seems unlikely that electric fish were ever used successfully by the ancients on heart patients.

 

Do you have any evidence to support this claim that's on the wall of one of your Aquarium exhibits? And, if Mr. Dohlin would be inclined to comment personally on our message board regarding this (see link above), he would be most welcome!

 

Thank you,

 

-- Nephele