Goths vs. Scythians

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

Here comes a nice map from en.wikipedia:

 

 

The green area is the traditional extent of G

Edited June 22, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[docoflove1974]

And the land in between the Roman purple and the Gothic orange...is that the Dacians and Moesians?

 

Does the archeology support a southern (or southeastern) migration? Is it possible that this group started out in the Scandinavian area, moved across to the Baltic region, and then to the Black Sea area? (Admittedly I haven't finished the book yet, nor looked at the others, so the answers could already be there.)

[ASCLEPIADES]

And the land in between the Roman purple and the Gothic orange...is that the Dacians and Moesians?

Yes

 

Does the archeology support a southern (or southeastern) migration? Is it possible that this group started out in the Scandinavian area, moved across to the Baltic region, and then to the Black Sea area? (Admittedly I haven't finished the book yet, nor looked at the others, so the answers could already be there.)

I really hope so. From my limited knowledge on this topic, it seems the Jury is still out.

[diegis]

Well, i think the problem is a little more complicated. The Cherniakov culture have a lot of dacian and even roman characteristics ( pottery especialy ), and goths area mixed with dacians one. They atacked together the Roman Empire borders at the begining, and when goths leave the area they spread all over they go some of dacian myths. They pretended that dacians (or getians, the name gived by ancient greeks ) are they ancestors and in Medieval times peoples where goths lived, from Spain to Sweden pretend their ancestry from old dacians and names like Buruista ( Burebista ), Dicineo ( Deceneu ) or Zalmoxis, all greatest dacian kings or even gods was know to them. In my opinion, goths was some germanic tribes mixed heavily with dacian ones, and originated from Black Sea area and the Scandza origin is more like a myth.

[Kosmo]

And the land in between the Roman purple and the Gothic orange...is that the Dacians and Moesians?

 

No, free dacians (carpii and costobocii) and former roman proper Dacia are included in the gothic orange while moesians are not around anymore. The region on the map below the Danube Delta (Moesia Inferior) should have been roman purple. The region between the roman purple on Middle Danube and the gothic orange, the puzta - Tisza plain, belongs to sarmatian people - the yaziges.

 

Does the archeology support a southern (or southeastern) migration? Is it possible that this group started out in the Scandinavian area, moved across to the Baltic region, and then to the Black Sea area? (Admittedly I haven't finished the book yet, nor looked at the others, so the answers could already be there.)

 

I believe it does.

As Diegis pointed above the Cernihov material culture (named Sintana de Mures in Romania) was made from several elements including roman provincial and free dacian.

 

I see things like this: a german speaking group vaguely identified as goths moves from Scandinavia to Ukraine. Here in a long time they combine with sarmatians, mixed greeks from Bosporan, free dacians, romans form Dacia etc creating a new group that still speaks german and identify as goths. This group moves to the Northern Balkans were it changes again and from there moves in two waves to Italy and Spain where they finally are absorbed by romance speakers.

[ASCLEPIADES]

And the land in between the Roman purple and the Gothic orange...is that the Dacians and Moesians?

 

No, free dacians (carpii and costobocii) and former roman proper Dacia are included in the gothic orange while moesians are not around anymore. The region on the map below the Danube Delta (Moesia Inferior) should have been roman purple. The region between the roman purple on Middle Danube and the gothic orange, the puzta - Tisza plain, belongs to sarmatian people - the yaziges.

Of course, K is right and UNRV information on provinces agree with him. My confusion, sorry.

[sonic]

And the land in between the Roman purple and the Gothic orange...is that the Dacians and Moesians?

 

No, free dacians (carpii and costobocii) and former roman proper Dacia are included in the gothic orange while moesians are not around anymore. The region on the map below the Danube Delta (Moesia Inferior) should have been roman purple. The region between the roman purple on Middle Danube and the gothic orange, the puzta - Tisza plain, belongs to sarmatian people - the yaziges.

 

Does the archeology support a southern (or southeastern) migration? Is it possible that this group started out in the Scandinavian area, moved across to the Baltic region, and then to the Black Sea area? (Admittedly I haven't finished the book yet, nor looked at the others, so the answers could already be there.)

 

I believe it does.

As Diegis pointed above the Cernihov material culture (named Sintana de Mures in Romania) was made from several elements including roman provincial and free dacian.

 

I see things like this: a german speaking group vaguely identified as goths moves from Scandinavia to Ukraine. Here in a long time they combine with sarmatians, mixed greeks from Bosporan, free dacians, romans form Dacia etc creating a new group that still speaks german and identify as goths. This group moves to the Northern Balkans were it changes again and from there moves in two waves to Italy and Spain where they finally are absorbed by romance speakers.

 

But what evidence is there that the 'Goths' ever lived in Scandinavia?

[docoflove1974]

I see things like this: a german speaking group vaguely identified as goths moves from Scandinavia to Ukraine. Here in a long time they combine with sarmatians, mixed greeks from Bosporan, free dacians, romans form Dacia etc creating a new group that still speaks german and identify as goths. This group moves to the Northern Balkans were it changes again and from there moves in two waves to Italy and Spain where they finally are absorbed by romance speakers.

 

Ok, this makes some sense. Linguistically it fits with evidence [i'm away from my books right now, but will come back to fill in the bits later] of Proto-Germanic and the spread of Germanic.

[Kosmo]

Don't worry A., for me it was easier to recognize the scant map features because I live in this depicted area.

 

sonic - First of all it's presumed that all germans came from Scandinavia. Second we have goths and romans saying that, Jordanes after Cassiodorus, and we have place names in Scandinavia that might be connected with Goths. Geats is the name of a local tribe in Southern Sweden - Gotolanda that were also called goths in much later sources. Then we have a culture south of Baltic with Scandinavian features. Here is the title of Charles X of Sweden 1654-1660 : King of Sweden, the Goths and the Wends; etc. etc.

 

What we have against this theory?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here is the title of Charles X of Sweden 1654-1660 : King of Sweden, the Goths and the Wends; etc. etc.

What we have against this theory?

Apparently, nothing to do with archeology; controversy seems to be of another nature:

From En.Wikipedia:

Gothicismus

"...is the name given to what is considered to have been a cultural movement in Sweden. The founders of the movement were Nicolaus Ragvaldi, the brothers Johannes Magnus, Olaus Magnus and Olof Rudbeck d.

[docoflove1974]

Ok, this makes some sense. Linguistically it fits with evidence [i'm away from my books right now, but will come back to fill in the bits later] of Proto-Germanic and the spread of Germanic.

 

As promised...here's what I have...

 

Beekes (1995: 27): Germanic's "area of concentration was the south of Norway and Sweden, Denmark, and the coast of Germany. It was from this area that the Germanic languages spread further south."

 

Beekes (1995: 29): "In fact, the whole problem of subgrouping of the Germanic languages has always been the subject of much scholarly dispute. But in principle the situation is a clear one. East Germanic [Gothic] split off from the main language first. Contact between the speakers of North [Norweigian, Swedish, Danish] and West [English, German, Dutch] Germanic became less and less frequent. In the southern regions of this large language area changes began to occur, originally involving the whole area (West Germanic developments), but later these changes originated from a number of different centers and covered smaller areas. The changing influences resulted in a large number of different dialects."

 

**This is particularly interesting the 'migration' of Germanic...however, it should be pointed out that Beekes also states in the following paragraph that "Germanic is not particularly archaic," which isn't always agreed upon. Schwink (2004) in particular says that there are issues with this in various parts of his book.

 

Now, this is a start...I can't find some of my other sources. But if the Beekes quote hold water, it certainly compares nicely to the Wikipedia map posted earlier.

 

References:

Beekes, Robert S. P. 1995. Comparative Indo-European Lingusitics: An Introduction. Translation of Vergelijkende taalwetenschap. Philadelphia: John Benjamins

 

Schwink, Frederick W. 2004. The Third Gender: Studies in the Origin and History of Germanic Grammatical Gender. Heidelberg: Universit

[Kosmo]

A. you have a fine point, even more, Goteborg was founded in the the XVII C AD...

Still a constitutive part of Sweden was the Gotoland/Gautland/Geatland with a separate identity. I could not find out if the title king of Goths of the Swedish kings came from this region or from Gothicismus.

[ASCLEPIADES]

A. you have a fine point, even more, Goteborg was founded in the the XVII C AD...

Still a constitutive part of Sweden was the Gotoland/Gautland/Geatland with a separate identity. I could not find out if the title king of Goths of the Swedish kings came from this region or from Gothicismus.

Salve, K

 

The title Dei Gratia Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex (By the Grace of God King of the Swedes, the Goths/Geats and the Wends) was used from 1544 (almost since the Swedish independence from Denmark) by Gustav I Vasa to 1973 by Gustav VI Adolf. The title of the incumbent Carl XVI Gustaf is just Sveriges Konung (King of Sweden).

For a long tome, Goth purported homelands were disputed by both kingdoms. Denmark didn't recognize Swedish sovereignty in Gotland (island) until the Treaty of Br

[Kosmo]

Thank you, A!

This makes things clearer.