Romans used 20-sided dice too!

[M. Porcius Cato]

The full dope at Wired Magazine.

[Nephele]

Interesting! I checked out the die on the Christie's website to see how it compared in size with modern-day polyhedral dice. The site says that this die is 2 1/16 inches. Seems a bit large, but then I guess it had to be big enough to read the symbols inscribed on it. Christie's site reports that the die sold for $17,925. I wonder if the original owner of that die ever made as big a killing?

 

-- Nephele

[M. Porcius Cato]

I wonder if the original owner of that die ever made as big a killing?

 

Not with a vorpal blade, I'd wager.

[Kosmo]

12 sided dice were used by romans for divination. Probably this one as well, rather then been used for games.

[Nephele]

I wonder if the original owner of that die ever made as big a killing?

 

Not with a vorpal blade, I'd wager.

 

LOL!

 

12 sided dice were used by romans for divination. Probably this one as well, rather then been used for games.

 

It's interesting that items used for gaming might also be used for divination, as in the connection between our modern-day playing cards and the Tarot.

 

However, I would be interested to know your source, Kosmo, regarding 12-sided dice having been used by the Romans strictly for divination and not for gaming. I didn't think the Romans relied on dice for divination -- at least not to the extent that they relied on other things, such as animal entrails (hieroscopy) and the behavior of birds (auspicy).

 

-- Nephele

[caldrail]

I wonder if the original owner of that die ever made as big a killing?

 

Not with a vorpal blade, I'd wager.

 

You've gone up in my estimations MPC

[M. Porcius Cato]

I wonder if the original owner of that die ever made as big a killing?

 

Not with a vorpal blade, I'd wager.

 

You've gone up in my estimations MPC

 

I've levelled? Excellent!

[Kosmo]

My source is

Justinian, Malalas, and the End of Athenian Philosophical Teaching in A.D. 529

* Edward Watts

* The Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. 94, (2004), pp. 168-182

* Published by: Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies

 

available on Jstor.

This connects the end of the Athenian philosophical school with the moves of the pious emperor Justinian against paganism and divination rather then against classical studies.

 

"One must then explain how the teaching of philosophy and astronomy in Athens could be prohibited by a law that more generally forbade the use of dice. The common thread linking all of these activities seems to be the act of divining the future. Divination was a skill that greatly interested Damascius and his associates, especially when it could be done in a novel way.37 Astronomy, through its derivative astrology, was also useful in foretelling the future and, as it was taught in the Athenian Neoplatonic school, its astrological element was neither separated nor downplayed.38 Although one would not immediately think it, dice too could be used for divination. The use of dice to divine the future is well attested in antiquity.39 It worked in a number of different ways but, on its most basic level, the practice relied upon a conversion chart that joined a set of numbers to a corresponding fortune. Particularly relevant to Malalas' notice is the detailed process of divination by dice laid out in a Latin manuscript of the sixth or seventh century A.D.4? This manuscript suggests a process that worked much like its ancient antecedents. The fortune-teller would have his questioner roll a twelve-sided die or a set of two dice. Then, checking the number that came up against a chart containing common questions and a list of answers, the interpreter would provide his questioner with the answer matching the number that he rolled. Much better known (although often less well-understood) is the Sortes Sanctorum, a divinatory text that was commonly used in Late Antiquity.4 It was apparently based upon a pagan original and, like its pagan antecedent, the Sortes Sanctorum relied upon dice combinations to divine responses to questions.42 A much later variation of this game is especially interesting in the light of Malalas' text. At the court of Charles V, a game called roughly 'The Dodecahedron of Fortune' was played using, surprisingly enough, a twelve-sided die. Each face of the die represented one of the twelve houses of the heavens. After a series of rolls, the die would provide its roller with a horoscope43 and, as such, the game joined astrology and dice for divinatory purposes."

 

"For the use of dice oracles in antiquity see W. Hansen, 'Fortune telling', in W. Hansen (ed.), An Anthology of Ancient Greek Popular Literature (1998), 285-91; R. Lane Fox, Pagans and Christians (1986), 20o9-o; and the more extensive treatment of C. Naour, Tyriaion en Cabalide (1980), 22-37. Addi- tional epigraphic evidence for the practice has been found in Pamphylia, Pisidia, and Lycia. Pausanias 7.25.6 describes the mechanics of such oracles."

 

Sorry Neph, but I said "probably" and "rather" not "strictly". The signs on the dice are strange for me and seem like mystical symbols while a game needs easy to understand signs. Of course I could be very wrong...

[Nephele]

Very enlightening, Kosmo! Thanks! I'll have to read further on dice and divination among the Romans, as these sorts of subjects particularly interest me, having spent some time on a few occult message boards. Not that I believe in divination, I hasten to add -- I'm interested in archetypal imagery and what various peoples believe(d). I would have especially loved to know what the symbols on that die were supposed to represent.

 

-- Nephele

[Formosus Viriustus]

My source is

Justinian, Malalas, and the End of Athenian Philosophical Teaching in A.D. 529

* Edward Watts

* The Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. 94, (2004), pp. 168-182

* Published by: Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies

 

available on Jstor.

This connects the end of the Athenian philosophical school with the moves of the pious emperor Justinian against paganism and divination rather then against classical studies.

 

" ... This manuscript suggests a process that worked much like its ancient antecedents. The fortune-teller would have his questioner roll a twelve-sided die or a set of two dice. Then, checking the number that came up against a chart containing common questions and a list of answers, the interpreter would provide his questioner with the answer matching the number that he rolled... ."

 

"For the use of dice oracles in antiquity see W. Hansen, 'Fortune telling', in W. Hansen (ed.), An Anthology of Ancient Greek Popular Literature (1998), 285-91; R. Lane Fox, Pagans and Christians (1986), 20o9-o; and the more extensive treatment of C. Naour, Tyriaion en Cabalide (1980), 22-37. Addi- tional epigraphic evidence for the practice has been found in Pamphylia, Pisidia, and Lycia. Pausanias 7.25.6 describes the mechanics of such oracles."

This all sounds very similar to the Chinese divination method of coin tossing - or stem counting if you're a purist - and consulting the "I Ching" (the famous hexagrams).

 

I found this on Roman dodecahedra on wiki. I don't think they have been mentioned here yet.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron

(also follow the links)

 

 

Formosus

Edited June 13, 2009 by Formosus Viriustus

[Fulvia]

This is all quite fascinating. Thanks for sharing!

[sylla]

The full dope at Wired Magazine.

Sadly, Mr. Hinerman didn't state how was this piece (lot 189/sale 1314) authenticated (to be fair, it seems neither did Christie's itself).

 

(BTW, I'm not sure if the Wired editor's "maxima plaga" would be the best translation for "critical hit").

Edited June 14, 2009 by sylla

[Formosus Viriustus]

Hexahedron, Dodecahedron, Icosahedron ?

 

What was it that Caesar used at the Rubicon ? Was it a d6, a d12 or a d20 ?

 

Most probably it was a d20 :

From the article :

 

 

[Viggen]

...so any more research done on this? What could it be used for?

http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/roman_dodecahedra.html