Was Jesus Caesar?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Yes. But to be perfectly fair to the Jewish-Roman Quisling, he does mention the abuses committed by the likes of Pilate and Felix and does not make excuses for them.

Salve, GD

 

Indeed. Both "Titus Flavius" Josephus and Vidkun Quisling were selective collaborationists.

 

For example, Quisling was no friend of Norway's Reichskommissar Josef Heinrich Terboven.

That didn't prevent them from working together in the massive deportation of Jews and Norwegian patriots to the Reich.

 

Even if TF Josephus was mistrusted by many Roman officials, who attributed every reverse on the Judean War to some treachery on his part, he was perfectly able to actively help Titus in Jerusalem's siege and genocide.

Edited July 7, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[Ingsoc]

Admittedly, all this comes from the Roman-Jewish version of Vidkun Quisling.

 

One has to be fair and mention that the rabbinic literature also portray the zealots in a negative way.

[ASCLEPIADES]

One has to be fair and mention that the rabbinic literature also portray the zealots in a negative way.

Indeed. For example, here comes the Talmud, Gittin 56a-b:

 

"The biryonim (revolutionaries, zealots) were then in the city. The rabbis said to them, 'Let us make peace with [the Romans]. They would not let them. They said, 'Let us fight them. The rabbis said: That will do nothing. [The biryonim] went and burned the stores of wheat and barley creating famine

[DDickey]

Could it have been that they had in the recent past come from there, and during the census returned so as to give the home town proper credit for reasons unknown to us now? I agree, it would seem that people should stay put during a proper census, at least by our own modern concept of a census, however other "political" motivations may have entered into the situation:

 

But it doesn

[Primus Pilus]

Could it have been that they had in the recent past come from there, and during the census returned so as to give the home town proper credit for reasons unknown to us now? I agree, it would seem that people should stay put during a proper census, at least by our own modern concept of a census, however other "political" motivations may have entered into the situation:

 

But it doesn

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Admittedly, all this comes from the Roman-Jewish version of Vidkun Quisling.

 

One has to be fair and mention that the rabbinic literature also portray the zealots in a negative way.

That is hardly surprising. Rabbinical Judaic literature survived, and could only survive in a milieu that was violently anti-Jewish, primarily because of its dissociation with the Messianic, Apocalyptic Judaism that had brought catastrophe to the Holy Land twice in a century. That is precisely the reason why Pauline Christianity also survived. It would have been unwise of the later sages and Rabbis to glorify the Zealots in a post-Hadrian era. So I think the Rabbinic literature you're talking about also needs to be ingested with a grain of salt.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Admittedly, all this comes from the Roman-Jewish version of Vidkun Quisling.

 

One has to be fair and mention that the rabbinic literature also portray the zealots in a negative way.

That is hardly surprising. Rabbinical Judaic literature survived, and could only survive in a milieu that was violently anti-Jewish, primarily because of its dissociation with the Messianic, Apocalyptic Judaism that had brought catastrophe to the Holy Land twice in a century. That is precisely the reason why Pauline Christianity also survived. It would have been unwise of the later sages and Rabbis to glorify the Zealots in a post-Hadrian era. So I think the Rabbinic literature you're talking about also needs to be ingested with a grain of salt.

Salve, Amici.

 

Hmmm... maybe we should open an additional thread on the zealotry and related issues.

[Ingsoc]

Some people may certainly consider them as the ancient Roman-Jewish version of Al Quaeda.

 

I don't sure that this comparison is valid, they operated in a small area of the Roman Empire and have a very narrow goal.

 

I don't think the Israel Defence Forces would agree.

 

Their are to some extent admiration to them in modern Israel however their tyrannical rule and the fact that they are largely seen guilty in the civil war during the Great Revolt largely hurt their reputation and they were seen as a negative example of Jewish independence and thus never rose to truely popular national heroes like king David, the Hasmoneans and Bar-Kochba.

 

That is hardly surprising. Rabbinical Judaic literature survived, and could only survive in a milieu that was violently anti-Jewish, primarily because of its dissociation with the Messianic, Apocalyptic Judaism that had brought catastrophe to the Holy Land twice in a century. That is precisely the reason why Pauline Christianity also survived. It would have been unwise of the later sages and Rabbis to glorify the Zealots in a post-Hadrian era. So I think the Rabbinic literature you're talking about also needs to be ingested with a grain of salt.

 

While their is an anti-Zealot tendencies from the rabbis after the failure of the Bar-Kochba revolt (btw this work from both ways, the Romans themselves have more moderate approach towards the Jews) but I doubt the Roman care much about Jewish literature (at this time censorship didn't exist) what more the non-Jewish European world "discover" the rabbinic literature only in the 13th century.

[ASCLEPIADES]

I don't sure that this comparison is valid, they operated in a small area of the Roman Empire and have a very narrow goal.

 

Their are to some extent admiration to them in modern Israel however their tyrannical rule and the fact that they are largely seen guilty in the civil war during the Great Revolt largely hurt their reputation and they were seen as a negative example of Jewish independence and thus never rose to truely popular national heroes like king David, the Hasmoneans and Bar-Kochba.

Salve, I. Here comes Titus Flavius Josephus Ioudaike Archaiologia, Liber XII cp. VI:

 

... there came one of the Jews into the midst of them, and sacrificed...(he) ran upon him violently... and slew both the man himself that sacrificed...

He also overthrew the idol altar, and cried out, "If," said he," any one be zealous for the laws of his country, and for the worship of God, let him follow me"...

Many others did the same also, and fled with their children and wives into the desert, and dwelt in caves...

So (he) got a great army about him, and overthrew their idol altars, and slew those that broke the laws, even all that he could get under his power; for many of them were dispersed among the nations round about them for fear of him. He also commanded that those boys which were not yet circumcised should be circumcised now..."

 

I understand how all these can be seen as tyrannical and guilty for provoking a civil war; only problem I see is that we're talking here about the Maccabean revolt of the first Hasmoneans at the II century BC, not the I century AD zealots.

("He" is Mattathias).

The main difference between both groups would be that the first one did win and the latter didn't.

Their methods seem quite similar to me.