Sander van Dorst.

[roman wargamer]

It was possible for a soldier to be promoted to the centurionate from the ranks

(if he displayed the necessary qualities and a vacancy existed), which may well mean he was not a citizen,

none citizen can never served in the legiones, that is the triarii, princeps, hastatus, much more as an officer.

fallacy in the concept of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome.

[caldrail]

firstly, changes of social status, to the membership in the centuriata and upward status,

needs to be confirmed by the senate censor, that is the lex or law.

you can not just claim it.

There wasn't any membership. It was a voting assembly. The presiding officer calls for a vote, and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Thats roman democracy. The only limitation was that it wasn't a free vote. You had to add your vote to a senior romans. Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'.

 

Adrian Goldsworthy in The Complete Roman Army mentions that social mobility was always possible. There you RW, I quoted a source. You don't, which is why you're struggling to get your point across.

 

Rome was a federation of tribe, so comitia centuriata is the federal representation

of the people in the confederation government of Rome.

No, it wasn't. It was a voting assembly for those men who had earned the right by virtue of military service to Rome. That said, it appears any citizen was entitled to attend an assembly.

 

and a very few select men and a few number of people only can vote... that is Rome ancient democracy.

not the same with your democracy.

Not the same as yours either.

 

you must tell the name of assembly you are mentioning, so we can study it's purpose.

I'll be happy to do so, once you start listing your sources. You can't have everything all your own way.

[roman wargamer]

your reply will not stand a good scrutiny,

 

to much flowery word will not make you right.

[caldrail]

your reply will not stand a good scrutiny,

 

to much flowery word will not make you right.

Why would I believe you're right? You come up with titles no-one has ever heard of, formations the roman military never listed, and procedures that bear no resemblance to that I read in books written by established authorities. Simply claiming my prose is flowery does not make you right, and your replies are not standing up to scrutiny at all.

[caldrail]

none citizen can never served in the legiones, that is the triarii, princeps, hastatus, much more as an officer.

fallacy in the concept of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome.

You are aware I take it, that slaves were recruited to the legions more than once? Granted they were made freedmen first, but hardly citizens were they? Further, that the practice of including landless peasants (and not ciizens either) in the levies was one inspiration for Marius's reforms and the opening of the legions to volunteers of the lower orders?

[Northern Neil]

none citizen can never served in the legiones, that is the triarii, princeps, hastatus, much more as an officer.

fallacy in the concept of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome.

You are aware I take it, that slaves were recruited to the legions more than once? Granted they were made freedmen first, but hardly citizens were they? Further, that the practice of including landless peasants (and not ciizens either) in the levies was one inspiration for Marius's reforms and the opening of the legions to volunteers of the lower orders?

 

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army

 

Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Northern Neil

[roman wargamer]

firstly, changes of social status, to the membership in the centuriata and upward status,

needs to be confirmed by the senate censor, that is the lex or law.

you can not just claim it.

There wasn't any membership. It was a voting assembly. The presiding officer calls for a vote, and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Thats roman democracy. The only limitation was that it wasn't a free vote. You had to add your vote to a senior romans. Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'.

 

Adrian Goldsworthy in The Complete Roman Army mentions that social mobility was always possible.

fallacy in the concept of probability. and reason of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome.

Marius did it, but did it with the help of Julii Patres influence.

 

 

Gaius Marius was the son of a small plebeian farmer near Arpinum. Contrary to popular belief, the Marius clan was influential locally, and maintained some limited client relationships with those in Rome. Of equestrian, but outside roots, Marius would find his early attempts to climb the Roman social and political ladder difficult at best. Using the Legion as his route to fame, fortune and power, he would become among the most influential men of his day, and the history of Rome. Ancient sources suggest that Marius was pre-destined, through the visions of a seer, to be Consul of Rome 7 times. Not only would this prove true, but he would eventually be hailed as the third founder of Rome, and its savior. Military glory and personal ambition drove Marius straight to the top of the Roman system, but perhaps even more importantly, the man and his legacy would have a profound impact on the life of his nephew, Gaius Julius Caesar.

 

As a youth Marius may have used his modest family influence to join the legions as a junior officer, or may have risen from the ranks. It is difficult to determine exactly, but it is known that he spent his early career in Hispania under Scipio Aemilianus, grandson of Scipio Africanus. Performing his duties admirably he quickly was promoted. By 123 BC, at the age of 34, the veteran officer was elected as quaestor and his political career was off the ground.

 

As a novus homo, or new man, Marius found the rise in the Roman cursus honorum a daunting challenge. It is certain that he used his old family client contacts and his military relations as a source of support. Among these contacts were the powerful Metelli family, and their early support was to prove to be a disaster for them. Just a few short years after his service as Quaestor, Marius was elected Tribune of the Plebes in 119 BC. In this position so soon after the political turmoil and murder of the Gracchi brothers (Gaius murdered 123 BC), Marius chose to follow the populares path make a name for himself under similar auspices. As Tribune, he would ensure the animosity of the conservative faction of the Senate, and the Metelli, by passing popular laws forbidding the inspection of ballot boxes. In do doing, he directly opposed the powerful elite, who used ballot inspection as a way to intimidate voters in the citizen assembly elections.

 

Immediately devoid of political support from the social elite, Marius was unsuccessful in several attempts to be elected as an aedile. His persistence, and disregard for his new man status made him several enemies, but he would persevere. In 115 BC, he was elected Praetor, but was bogged down by politically motivated challenges to his election. After a year of service in Rome, Marius was assigned the province of further Spain for his proprietorship. While a seemingly inglorious position, he served well, and his military experience played a significant role. Putting down several small revolts, and amassing a considerable personal fortune in Spanish mineral wealth in the process, Marius returned to Rome as a successful and perhaps more modest new man. Sensing the resistance, he put off any attempts to run for the next stage of Roman offices, the Consulship.

 

Perhaps his decision not to run for Consul, his amassing of personal wealth or other factors cooled the animosity between him and the optimate powers. In 110 BC, in taking advantage of the calmer political environment, Marius would make an arrangement that would send shock waves through his own life and Rome itself. The Caesar branch of the Julii family, as impeccably Roman and patrician as they could come, had completely fallen from political prominence and at this point, didn't have the personal wealth to change matters. Likely heavily influenced by Marius' money, as he was socially considered an uneducated, ill-mannered barbarian, a marriage was arranged between Julia Caesar and Gaius. Marius gained the benefit of entry into social and political circles that he would never have had, and the Julii were immediately re-established as a power player through the financing of political campaigns by Marius. As a result of this marriage and his apparant relaxed political motivations, the breach that existed between Marius and the Metelli was soon also healed. By 109 BC, the consul Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, would select Marius as a chief subordinate for his campaign against Jugurtha of Numidia.

 

Rise of Marius

 

With his new found good fortune, coming in the form of marriage to Julia Caesar, and his apparent reconciliation with the Metelli family, Marius was in a position to make political strides. At this time, the War with Jugurtha had been carrying on for nearly 4 years in Numidia. With no settlement in sight, and charges of corruption and bribery running rampant against the Roman generals in charge of the operation, Quintus Caecilius Metellus was elected Consul in 109 BC. Charged with carrying out the Roman war effort against Jugurtha, Metellus knew Marius was a quality soldier, and appointed him to serve as his chief Legate.

 

Metellus' first two years in Africa were much the same result as his predecessors. Aside from some minor victories by Marius, the Romans did little to really alter the situation. Marius, sensing the political and popular frustration in Rome, had the perfect opportunity to run for Consul on the basis of being able to finish the war. His time spent as Metellus' subordinate was put to good use by ensuring good terms and popularity among the legionaries. He put the word out to those friends he had in Rome that he alone could win the war, and that the people must elect him. Campaigning essentially through others, and in abstentia, Marius went to Metellus to request dismissal from his service so that he could return to Rome for proper campaigning. Marius was abruptly refused and was forced to continue using his client base to run his campaign. Presenting himself as the blunt, honest general with more capability, and without personal motivation, he was presented as the popular alternative to the ineptness and corruption of the aristocratic elite. Eventually, with the stalemate in Numidia continuing, the strategy worked, and in 107 BC Gaius Marius was elected Consul for the first time.

 

Metellus was recalled even though the senate wanted to continue his service in Numidia as Proconsul. Through more political wrangling (some say illegal), Marius managed to be appointed as commander in Africa. Due to a military crisis from Germanic victories in Gaul, Marius was forced to take unprecendented measures and recruit his armies from the Roman landless masses. Even so, within two years, Marius completed what he said he would, conquering Numidia and putting an end to the war. Though, there was military success in the field, it was through the service of a young patrician officer, Lucius Cornelius Sulla that the war finally came to a close. Jugurtha himself was betrayed by his ally Bocchus, the King of Mauretania, into the arms of the Romans. Sulla organized the capture, but Marius, having Imperium as Consul, would receive the credit, while Sulla maintained the war only ended through his achievement. The incident was the beginning of a terrible rivalry between the two men that would have monumental repercussions in later years.

 

For the time being, however, Marius was at the beginning of his hold on Roman political power. Germanic invasions into northern Italy would propel Marius to new heights and his reform of the armies would have an impact on the Roman social structure, previously unmatched. Even the attempted reforms of the Gracchi brothers would pale in comparison to what Marius did.

 

and he begin as plebian.

[roman wargamer]

firstly, changes of social status, to the membership in the centuriata and upward status,

needs to be confirmed by the senate censor, that is the lex or law.

you can not just claim it.

There wasn't any membership...and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total.

Servius Tullius

chief contribution to the Roman history

was the substitution for the hereditary clans a new military division into classes

and the centuries, was base on wealth and arms.

 

Upon this arrangement depended a new assembly, the comitia centuriata

the voting was taken over from comitia curiata.

 

A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast

 

at this period, Rome have only 4 tribe confederation.

 

see references below;

The Roman Army, 500-350BC by Gaius Octavius

 

Notes from: "Hannibal" (The Roman Army), The Early Army of Rome 500-350BC; Theodore Ayrault Dodge.

 

Earliest: Three Tribes each required to produce 1,000 foot and 100 horse. Foot divided into 10 centuries of 100 men. Horse divided into 10 decuries of 10 men. (After first mounted mob and second Dorian Phalanx.)

King or leader had a personal guard of 300 mounted men called celeres. They were paid and kept constantly at the ready. Each 1,000 foot were commanded by a tribune (~colonel). Each century by a centurion (~captain).

 

Servius Tullius: 168 centuries of foot divided into 4 legions of 4,200 foot (42 centuries); 2 legions of juniores, aged 17-45. 2 legions of seniores, aged 46-60. A cavalry arm 2,400 strong. There also were centuries of pioneers and musicians.

Edited May 28, 2008 by roman wargamer

[caldrail]

Servius Tullius

chief contribution to the Roman history

was the substitution for the hereditary clans a new military division into classes

and the centuries, was base on wealth and arms.

 

Upon this arrangement depended a new assembly, the comitia centuriata

the voting was taken over from comitia curiata.

 

The Comitia Curiata was based on the original three tribes of Rome, or more precisely, the thirty curiae that it divided into. Originally this meant the warrior bands and thus has a military-esque origin, since men who had fought for Rome were accorded better status - the origin of patrician families is that of these warriors. The Comitia Centuriata on the other hand was based on the centuries as developed later - but for much the same reasons - and had a system of 193 voting blocks to which citizens could apply their vote. The Comitia Tributa had a much simpler system based on 35 voting blocks, and if I remember right, the Consilium Plebis adopted the same structure.

 

Each 1,000 foot were commanded by a tribune (~colonel). Each century by a centurion (~captain).

A tribune was not a colonel. A colonel is a modern rank that has responsibility given to him by the state to command a regiment. The romans did not use a regimental system, nor does the modern day have six colonels time-sharing their command as the romans did with their tribunes pre-Marius. The same arguement applies to the centurion. The captain is a modern rank with fixed levels of responibility within a regimimental system,. Centurions were junior warband leaders with direct resonsibility for battlefield command, and in some circumstances, were also given control of territory within a province - far exceeding the captains status in some respects and not in others.

 

I wouldn't rely entirely on T.A. Dodge. He was a military man who applied his own experience to the legions and decided it was the same. Of course it wasn't, but Dodges perspective has been repeated by educated military men since the victorian era. Its a distorted view of the roman legions. The problem is that the romans were organised, aggressive, and to their enemies, appeared as a monolithic military machine, ruthlessly marching across the face of the world and crushing anything in their path. This image has endured to the modern day, and so many times I come across young men staring glassy-eyed into the distance imagining being part of this system. The reality was very different. Roman soldiers were brutal men kept in line by severe discipline rather than loyalty to the state. They bullied civilians and each other. They bribed officers for easy duties and this behaviour, whilst considered undesirable by some statesmen, was more generally considered normal. Legions were independent mini-armies, each seperate from the other, answerable to their commanders more often than not, and certainly weren't shy of mounting mutinies or rebellions. I can't think of any modern army that operates anything like that.

 

I get the impression you're searching for evidence to back this concept you have about a roman monolithic military machine. Its not a good idea. There's enough evidence left to us by romans themselves that suggests they were still using warbands (albeit in a formal and very organised fashion) in pretty much the same way as their enemies. Any attempt to describe the roman system in the same way as ours is ignoring that facts that don't fit, and thinking of a conclusion then trying to find arguements to make it work - thats not good history because inevitably you ignore information that doesn't agree with you.

 

The romans lived two thousand years ago. They fought en-masse with sword and shield. There really isn't much similarity with the modern day and although some of their practises away from the battlefield parallel our own, they were geared to roman needs, not the modern day mechanised armies.

Edited May 29, 2008 by caldrail

[roman wargamer]

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army

 

Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor.

is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.

[Nephele]

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army

 

Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor.

is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.

 

 

It is highly unlikely that the Syrian in question had been adopted into a noble Roman family. Roman adoptions didn't quite work that way. Plus, if the tombstone quoted by Northern Neil dates from the 3rd century onwards, the name of the Syrian in question -- "M. Aurelius Alexander" -- indicates that, far from having been "adopted" into a noble Roman family, he (or an earlier family member) received that Roman name as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana, when freeborn subjects throughout the Roman empire adopted the nomen gentilicium of "Aurelius" out of gratitude to the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.

 

-- Nephele

[roman wargamer]

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army

 

Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor.

is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.

 

 

It is highly unlikely that the Syrian in question had been adopted into a noble Roman family. Roman adoptions didn't quite work that way. Plus, if the tombstone quoted by Northern Neil dates from the 3rd century onwards, the name of the Syrian in question -- "M. Aurelius Alexander" -- indicates that, far from having been "adopted" into a noble Roman family, he (or an earlier family member) received that Roman name as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana, when freeborn subjects throughout the Roman empire adopted the nomen gentilicium of "Aurelius" out of gratitude to the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.

 

-- Nephele

hello Nephele

 

of course, all answer to that kind of question shall be doubtful, even the best theory answer.

but adoption by plebian is the best place to begin as prefecti.

[roman wargamer]

Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'.

the power of patrician censor

 

census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes

regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen

recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue

 

A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast

[Nephele]

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army

 

Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor.

is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.

 

 

It is highly unlikely that the Syrian in question had been adopted into a noble Roman family. Roman adoptions didn't quite work that way. Plus, if the tombstone quoted by Northern Neil dates from the 3rd century onwards, the name of the Syrian in question -- "M. Aurelius Alexander" -- indicates that, far from having been "adopted" into a noble Roman family, he (or an earlier family member) received that Roman name as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana, when freeborn subjects throughout the Roman empire adopted the nomen gentilicium of "Aurelius" out of gratitude to the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.

 

-- Nephele

hello Nephele

 

of course, all answer to that kind of question shall be doubtful, even the best theory answer.

but adoption by plebian is the best place to begin as prefecti.

 

Again, Roman adoption did not quite work the way you imagine.

 

-- Nephele

[caldrail]

Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'.

the power of patrician censor

 

census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes

regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen

recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue

 

A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast

 

The power to grant new upward class status? But was that an exclusive right? In any case, the censor is only formalising an existing situation. If a man reaches the necessary qualification to be admitted to the senate, then the cenors role makkes sense, as he's confirming this mans achievement and making it clear to the senate that he has become a member of their select club. The only reason this power existed was because the numbers in the senate were limited, in order to maintain status and privilege. I think you'll find the censors power to elevate a man were done as a confirmation, not as an executive decision, and that he would not concern himself with lesser ranks overly. In any case, there were plenty of romans pretending to be something they weren't. Slaves pretended to be free men, free men pretended to be slaves. Certainly if caught these people were hauled in front of a magistrate, but did the censor worry about that? He was there as a senate membership auditor. Further, he had no jurisdiction of the roman military as far as I can see, and military service was one way to advance your status. A man promoted from the ranks to centurion was already operating in a role considered worthy of equites. The censor had no involvement in that.