Europe's debt to Islam given a skeptical look

[Gaius Octavius]

A Hungarian, after being turned down by Constantine sold the cannon to the Turks.

 

Did the Arabs get the idea, if not the exact form, of their numeric ciphers from India?

 

There is not one place on the face of the Earth, where Moslems are so much as a plurality, from a tiny island in the Caribbean to the Philippines, that they must not be top dog. Others may not celebrate their religions nor their irreligion. It is just fine to murder a Syrian and Chaldean Christian bishop. It is fine to distort a Popes message.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Gaius Octavius

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Others may not celebrate their religions nor their irreligion

That's interesting. I remember spending two years of my childhood in Jordan and seeing the city of Amman decked out like a bride every Christmas. Back to the topic - Muslim scholars in Spain did translate a lot of classical works from Greek to Arabic and these were subsequently learned and transmitted by itinerant European scholars. This spurred the Enlightenment as much as the mass emigration of Byzantine scholars did. The fact that the Arabs transmitted knowledge borrowed from other civilizations cannot be held against them. No one criticizes the Romans for adopting and implementing ideas that rightly belonged to neighboring civilizations. After all the Arabian peninsula was a cultural backwater not too long before Islamic civilization reached its zenith. Considering just this one fact, I think the rise to cultural prominence of the Arabs was rather remarkable. Also, algebra (al jabr - the counting), algorithms (Al Khwarizmi), and alchemy (al keemia - the chemistry) owe their origins to the Arabs. Avicenna discovered the circulation of blood through the body long before Harvey did.

[Northern Neil]

Others may not celebrate their religions nor their irreligion

That's interesting. I remember spending two years of my childhood in Jordan and seeing the city of Amman decked out like a bride every Christmas. Back to the topic - Muslim scholars in Spain did translate a lot of classical works from Greek to Arabic and these were subsequently learned and transmitted by itinerant European scholars. This spurred the Enlightenment as much as the mass emigration of Byzantine scholars did. The fact that the Arabs transmitted knowledge borrowed from other civilizations cannot be held against them. No one criticizes the Romans for adopting and implementing ideas that rightly belonged to neighboring civilizations. After all the Arabian peninsula was a cultural backwater not too long before Islamic civilization reached its zenith. Considering just this one fact, I think the rise to cultural prominence of the Arabs was rather remarkable. Also, algebra (al jabr - the counting), algorithms (Al Khwarizmi), and alchemy (al keemia - the chemistry) owe their origins to the Arabs. Avicenna discovered the circulation of blood through the body long before Harvey did.

This is all true, of course - it would be absurd to say that not a single muslim brought no benefits in learning at all. Some of us are just saying the debate is uneven. Interestingly, some moderate parts of the British muslim community long for the tolerant Islam of, say, the 10th century to return.

[Ludovicus]

"When Sylvain Gouguenheim looks at today's historical vision of the history of the West and Islam, he sees a notion, accepted as fact, that the Muslim world was at the source of the Christian Europe's reawakening from the Middle Ages.

 

He sees a portrayal of an enlightened Islam, transmitting westward the knowledge of the ancient Greeks through Arab translators and opening the path in Europe to mathematics, medicine, astronomy and philosophy - a gift the West regards with insufficient esteem.

 

"This thesis has basically nothing scandalous about it, if it were true," Gouguenheim writes. "In spite of the appearances, it has more to do with taking ideological sides than scientific analysis."

 

For a controversy, here's a real one, a professor of medieval history at a prestigious university, l'

Edited May 1, 2008 by Ludovicus

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Interestingly, some moderate parts of the British muslim community long for the tolerant Islam of, say, the 10th century to return.

Quite commendable. Only the word tolerant needs to be used in a relative sense. It would be absurd to equate the tolerance of the Islam of that period to the religious tolerance of modern societies. As history students we, of course, should be aware that historical societies should be judged against their historical backdrop and not by modern standards and this is something people that are not into history often fail to realise. Islamic societies of that time period were remarkably more tolerant than contemporary Christian societies but the comparison ought to end right there.

[M. Porcius Cato]

In a nutshell, this how the Muslims restored to the Europeans a part of the *identity* they had lost.

 

I agree completely. Thanks for the reference to Rubinstein's book.

[Gaius Octavius]

G.H., did you see crosses on the tops of churches? Synagogues? Stars of David on their tops?

 

Because St. Augustine adopted Plato's philosophy, it does not follow that Aristotle was consigned to the dust bin of history.

 

Evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, CHRISTIAN Europeans were a bunch of klutzes barely able to eat soup out of their own hands. Much of the chatter on this thread reflects an anti-Christian bias and a desire to be 'politically correct'.

 

From Greek/Latin into Arabic and then back? Since Arabic grammar is so different from Indo-European grammar, could it be that this led to much misunderstanding of ancient texts? By even the Arabs themselves? Yeah, I know, this statement proves that the present Christian Bible is a fraud.

 

Why, in the name of twaddle, with 7,000 Arabic loan words, is Spanish a Latin tongue? I, for one, will have no more of this; Spanish is an Arabic tounge! I will make it my object in life to alert all Mexicans, Chileans, etc., of their great blunder!

[Kosmo]

http://www.lemonde.fr/livres/article/2008/...l?xtor=RSS-3260

 

An article about his book in french newspaper Le Monde. We can not discuss more his theory without better knowledge of his work.

 

In a brief summary his thesis as presented here claims that links with Byzantium were never broken and greek manuscripts and people able to read them travelled West especially in Sicilly and Rome. Between 685 and 753 the popes were greeks and syrians. In 758-763, P

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

G.H., did you see crosses on the tops of churches? Synagogues? Stars of David on their tops?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. I also saw hundreds of cedar trees festooned with Christmas lighting and I have also heard Christmas carols openly over the radio there, just as in Western countries. No Stars of David because there is hardly any Jewish presence there. Plenty of Christians though, all practising openly. There are also Christian officers in the Royal Jordanian Army, some of whom were friends with my Dad, just as there were Christians in Saddam Hussein's Iraqi army. My aunt, who was an Evangelical Christian, lived many years in the Middle East and said she was never harassed for her faith, which she made no attempt to hide. I don't think anyone here is claiming that Spanish is an Arabic tongue.

[Gaius Octavius]

G.H., did you see crosses on the tops of churches? Synagogues? Stars of David on their tops?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. I also saw hundreds of cedar trees festooned with Christmas lighting and I have also heard Christmas carols openly over the radio there, just as in Western countries. No Stars of David because there is hardly any Jewish presence there. Plenty of Christians though, all practising openly. There are also Christian officers in the Royal Jordanian Army, some of whom were friends with my Dad, just as there were Christians in Saddam Hussein's Iraqi army. My aunt, who was an Evangelical Christian, lived many years in the Middle East and said she was never harassed for her faith, which she made no attempt to hide. I don't think anyone here is claiming that Spanish is an Arabic tongue.

 

As an Evangelical Christian, could your aunt do her Christian duty and proselytize, as Moslems may do in your country? Didn't the American wife of the last king but one have to convert before the wedding? I can just envision a Jewish P.M.

I never claimed that Spanish is an Arabic tongue.

The fact that there are Christian officers in the Royal Jordanian Army, is a hangover from the British officered Jordanian Legion. Why, their military bands are decked out as Highlanders; kilts, bagpipes and all!

Edited May 2, 2008 by Gaius Octavius

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

As an Evangelical Christian, could your aunt do her Christian duty and proselytize, as Moslems may do in your country? Didn't the American wife of the last king but one have to convert before the wedding? I can just envision a Jewish P.M.

Well, my aunt wasn't they proselytizing type (thank goodness) but I know that Christian missionaries evangelize in Muslim countries all the time. I know because I've met them. They are active from Algeria to Indonesia. I even remember reading an article in Mother Jones about some Evangelical college in the southern part of the U.S that specializes in churning out missionaries for the Muslim world. Some Muslim countries have official laws against proselytizing but the authorities often wink at such activities. The only place that I know of where the ban is rigorously enforced is Saudi. As for King Abdullah's wife, how do you know her conversion was not willing? FYI the late Yasser Arafat's wife is a Christian, as is Hannan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian parliament. You may not be able to visualize a Jewish P.M but there is a Jewish M.P in Iran, Ebrahim and Houda Nonoo are both Jewish M.Ps in Bahrain, Abraham Serfaty was a member of Morocco's Finance Ministry in the '60s, Andre Azoulay is a senior advisor to Morocco's King Hassan and Joseph Bismuth is Tunisian Jewish senator.

Edited May 3, 2008 by Gladius Hispaniensis

[Gaius Octavius]

G.H., that was the clincher! I've taken to rags for my head, and beg terms.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

G.H., that was the clincher! I've taken to rags for my head, and beg terms.

I thought we Rome-lovers believed in unconditional surrender.