A Roman Empire Today..

[Virgil61]

Particularly if that analysis is OVERLY critical! 

 

Out of curiosity, do you have any better ideas for parallels for America's situation, or even a different matchup that works better for your seemingly impossible standards?

 

I didn't start out to be overly critical but the problem with your parallel is it seemed somewhat absolute in terms of similarities and the accuracy of some of the claims was suspect. The implication of a possible outcome based on them was obvious; when that happens and you post it on this board then it's going to be dismantled and analyzed pretty thoroughly. It's not a "seemingly impossible" standard, it's a valid criticism of a popular old thesis vis-a-vis Rome and America. It's an old thesis that's been used a lot to support political ideologies and notions on decline [your's is certainly a cut above most I've read]. You tried to field a somewhat comprehensive draft thesis for parallels and it deserves scrutiny. For example your reply:

 

Rome was an agricultural based economy, and it was the fundamental of what fueled its economy. The fundamental of the American economy are corporations. Same patterns of wealth distribution, matters not if its in grain or software.

 

 

Agriculture is an economic sector and it was the basics of the Roman economy, while the U.S. economy has a variety of different sectors. Corporations on the other hand are legal, financial and organizational entities to manage and conduct business, they aren't an economic sector. That�s comparing apples and oranges. Wealth distribution patterns aren't the same, while 1% of the population in the U.S. own 1/3 of the wealth, in Rome the top 1% owned a substantial majority of it, if I remember correctly well over 90%. You argue that farmers in Rome and America lost their farms but don�t follow up the obvious vitally important difference; The Roman farmer was often left destitute while the American left for a job in industry.

 

The mechanisms of why something happens are as important as the surface similarities. Just because both threw off the yoke of a king doesn't give their parallel situations meaning except on the most shallow basis. While mingling of races occur in both Rome and the U.S. [and other countries] the question of why, what forces are at work and the context tell a more complex story and determine the outcomes differently for each. I'm not sure what sort of "blood aristocracy" we have in the U.S. that is similar to Rome but is different than anyone else's or a mingling of the races that puts us closer to them than to Britain, South Africa, Canada, et. al. I don't think digging beneath surface similarities conveys an "impossible standard".

 

Making close parallels between civilizations is fun and instructive, but it can rarely be done without highlighting the differences as well. When that's done it becomes comparative history. I think tightening up the factual accuracies and including both similarities and contrasts between the Empire or the Republic and the U.S. would make the last statement; "I wonder what America's fate will be" more powerful.

 

To answer your last question, I don't believe there's any decent parallel you can make about America�s situation, what can be done is a comparative history- a subtle but important difference. Niall Ferguson does this when comparing British and American imperialism in "Colossus". If you get a chance try reading "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy or "Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy: Lord and Peasant in the Making of the Modern World" by Barrington Moore. Both are flawed but still great comparative histories; they highlight similarities and then they contrast differences that lead to the outcomes of the respective nation or class depending on the book.

[Valentinian]

America like all great superpowers will eventually collapse from the weigh of its own imperialism and pigheadedness...its the same with all superpowers from Rome to the 21st century. The EU is a ver good example of how one day all of Europe will be regarded as a single state, more superpowers are on their way through, one of those being China as well...and eventually I have no doubt that they will collapse as well...responding to the quote:

 

"QUOTE

The availability of open lands, slavery, a labor shortage in our early history, political unrest and poverty in other countries brought immigrants to the U.S. Romans were more apt to colonize overseas.

 

 

Hm I dunno, you still have a large scale mixing of populations in the form of slaves and immegrants to Italia, and particularly to Rome. Its these areas that form the tempo of political and social life in their entire empire."

 

You can find the same osrt of thing in america too, although they aren't called slaves what do the millions of absolute minimum wage workers in America get for their hard work, practically zip and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything about it, that was the same for Rome, not superpower can exist without the sheer manpower of a vast majority of semi-slaves.

 

The politics of America dont seem to be so cut-throat though, back during the days of the Republic and the Empire the political arena was a

death trap...

[Marcus Aurelius]

The knee jerk reaction many of us might have to re-forming a culture similar to Rome is "Oh! Wouldn't that be cool!"

 

Certainly, some of why Romanization isn't possible has been touched on above.

 

My opinion is that, if you take a close look at Roman history and civilization, some of its more incredible aspects, like its reliance on and casual acceptance of slavery, taking hostages in war, free gladiator spectacles as public entertainment, the power of the father over the family, its religion, the laws forcing men to marry and women to have children, etc. would overshadow any accomplishments it could achieve. The regime would be viewed as amongst the most notorious in the world and many powerful nations would be chomping at the bit to extinguish it, take its territory and be declared a hero, besides.

[futurehistorian1]

Do you think something relitavly close to the Roman Empire could be formed in a country.

 

Example:Lets say a country like Luxmberg or the Netherlands wanted to become Roman, like really Roman, Roman looking towns, Latin Laungage, Roman Religion, Roman Culture and the like. Rome Republiscim also. Do you think that a new Rome could be ahcieved if enough people wanted it to happen. Except the new Rome would have modern day technolgy in the buildings and medicene and the like.

So do you think it could happen a nation could go Romaniazed and become just like the Empire of the past.

Explain your answear

Sorry about spelling

Zeke

Yes yes yes yes yes. what ever country did it would become rich to it would be the greatest tourest atraction in the world Question would the laws of crime and punish ment of rome apply there or normal laws

[emperor]

This is unbelievable. I can't go into any forum - any - without seeing people's comments on the Bush reelection. On forums that have absolutely nothing to do with American politics! I come here to discuss the Roman Empire, not listen to people tell me that I'm a terrorist.

 

Can we at least keep the political comments confined to the "after hours" lounge?

 

yeah serisolully leave bad s@#% about the usa out of this forum keep it to youre selfs

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

America like all great superpowers will eventually collapse from the weigh of its own imperialism and pigheadedness...its the same with all superpowers from Rome to the 21st century. The EU is a ver good example of how one day all of Europe will be regarded as a single state, more superpowers are on their way through, one of those being China as well...and eventually I have no doubt that they will collapse as well...responding to the quote:

 

"QUOTE

The availability of open lands, slavery, a labor shortage in our early history, political unrest and poverty in other countries brought immigrants to the U.S. Romans were more apt to colonize overseas.

 

 

Hm I dunno, you still have a large scale mixing of populations in the form of slaves and immegrants to Italia, and particularly to Rome. Its these areas that form the tempo of political and social life in their entire empire."

 

You can find the same osrt of thing in america too, although they aren't called slaves what do the millions of absolute minimum wage workers in America get for their hard work, practically zip and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything about it, that was the same for Rome, not superpower can exist without the sheer manpower of a vast majority of semi-slaves.

 

The politics of America dont seem to be so cut-throat though, back during the days of the Republic and the Empire the political arena was a

death trap...

 

Wow Valentinian, you are just what people in America perceive as a stereotypical European these days. Jez, talking about a stagnant economy. I would say more, but would yet again incur the mods wraths.

[Neos Dionysos]

America like all great superpowers will eventually collapse from the weigh of its own imperialism and pigheadedness...its the same with all superpowers from Rome to the 21st century. The EU is a ver good example of how one day all of Europe will be regarded as a single state, more superpowers are on their way through, one of those being China as well...and eventually I have no doubt that they will collapse as well...responding to the quote:

 

"QUOTE

The availability of open lands, slavery, a labor shortage in our early history, political unrest and poverty in other countries brought immigrants to the U.S. Romans were more apt to colonize overseas.

 

 

Hm I dunno, you still have a large scale mixing of populations in the form of slaves and immegrants to Italia, and particularly to Rome. Its these areas that form the tempo of political and social life in their entire empire."

 

You can find the same osrt of thing in america too, although they aren't called slaves what do the millions of absolute minimum wage workers in America get for their hard work, practically zip and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything about it, that was the same for Rome, not superpower can exist without the sheer manpower of a vast majority of semi-slaves.

 

The politics of America dont seem to be so cut-throat though, back during the days of the Republic and the Empire the political arena was a

death trap...

 

Wow Valentinian, you are just what people in America perceive as a stereotypical European these days. Jez, talking about a stagnant economy. I would say more, but would yet again incur the mods wraths.

 

I could say so much... but I'd like not to be banned...

[Ursus]

Now that I'm moderator, I can send the section of this argument dealing with modern politics to the afterhours lounge where it belongs.

 

 

Actually, I'm just sending the whole thing to the afterhours lounge since it was in some sense hijacked.