I don't want to serve in the army

[caldrail]

Once he takes on his adult toga and shaves, the young man can make his own decisions. Nonetheless, his father is the boss by roman custom, or rather head of the household and as such his son must pay him respect and observe his wishes or be regarded as a bad son.

 

Most businessmen were freedmen, and many of those operated under the patronage of their social betters. It worked both ways. The patron got someone under his wing who could do him favours and inform him of goings-on, whilst the client got protection and contracts.

 

Some very wealthy people did dabble as a diversion - emperors were often doing odd things like that because it was entertaining for them and lets face it, when you're top dog, who's going to stop you? I can't think of any emperor businessman as such, but I'm thinking of something like Caligula becoming an auctioneer. Not because he made money out of it, but because he found it fun to sell other peoples belongings. There was of course Crassus, who made money out of letting property (like so many others) but in his case he accumulated property by taking advantage of fires and collapses, buying land for cash in hand and then redeveloping it as rented property which was no doubt none too cheap. He used agents for this purpose, he did not make contracts in person.

 

That said, we know from Pompeii that some people did well out of businesses. There was a widow for instance who ran one in her own name. She had to marry for the sake of appearances but the business was definitely in her name after her husband died. I'm not entirely sure of her social status. She certainly wasn't from a working class family.

[Kosmo]

Then Arius it's going to spend the next 25 years in the legion and will not marry until the end of his service.

 

If Lucius father it's of senatorial rank, a bussines career would be seen badly. If he is equites then he is free to do whaterver he pleases if he has the money for it. Of course the best way to get richer for a influent roman was in politics. A equites can govern the property of the emperor named Egypt or after an outstanding carrer a senator can enjoy Africa for a year and a couple million sesterts.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Kosmo

[Denia]

Then Arius it's going to spend the next 25 years in the legion and will not marry until the end of his service.

You are right, but the bad news is that he gets injured very badly and paralized soldiers are of no use... So the end of his service is a little earlier. I was wondering what Rome did for those men. No social security, I guess.

 

If Lucius father it's of senatorial rank, a bussines career would be seen badly. If he is equites then he is free to do whaterver he pleases if he has the money for it. Of course the best way to get richer for a influent roman was in politics. A equites can govern the property of the emperor named Egypt or after an outstanding carrer a senator can enjoy Africa for a year and a couple million sesterts.

Lucius father is plebeian and he's an aedilis, so yes, politics. But I don't want Lucius to be a politician. Politics are too boring

 

Once he takes on his adult toga and shaves, the young man can make his own decisions. Nonetheless, his father is the boss by roman custom, or rather head of the household and as such his son must pay him respect and observe his wishes or be regarded as a bad son.

OK, that's more freedom than I thought. I remember reading somewhere (but not exactly where) that a Roman son had to ask permission to his father for almost everything. And that's really destroying for a good story. So I'm very glad to hear this!

[Primus Pilus]

OK, that's more freedom than I thought. I remember reading somewhere (but not exactly where) that a Roman son had to ask permission to his father for almost everything. And that's really destroying for a good story. So I'm very glad to hear this!

 

I wouldn't worry too terribly much about this Denia. There were exceptions to every rule. Women overcame social stigma and ran businesses, fought in the arena and were forces of politics even if not in official capacities. Just the same, there were young men who rebelled against authoritative fathers just as there are today. While the repercussions of today may carry less social backlash than it did 2,000 years ago, such things still took place. Painting every citizen of the Roman empire with a single all conforming stroke of the pen would be as equally bad as ignoring social custom and law all together.

[caldrail]

Then Arius it's going to spend the next 25 years in the legion and will not marry until the end of his service.

You are right, but the bad news is that he gets injured very badly and paralized soldiers are of no use... So the end of his service is a little earlier. I was wondering what Rome did for those men. No social security, I guess.

No, but a soldier in that circumstance would receive whatever pension he had accrued as a lump sum. If he was a member of a burial club, perhaps they would help? His mates might try to set up in some measure of protection & comfort locally, or perhaps arrange for him to be sent home.

[Legio X]

Before the Marius reforms, ca 100BC the army was made up by normal workers as farmers, blacksmiths etc in times of war, but after the reforms Marius made up an professional army, where people joined volunteer, but if too few joined people get called in. This isnt maybe what you meant but its all i know about it.

[Trethiwr]

Caldrail didn't you miss one in your list.

Couldn't a young man, determined to avoid military service, simply learn to do EVERYTHING with his left hand?

I understand that for the greater part of Roman history left handedness was an absolute barrier to military service because the testudo did not work with one southpaw messing up the formation.

 

Also that would make a nice round TEN possible ways for your list.

 

Of course if anyone threw him a ball he might accidentally catch it with his right hand which would give him away but maybe ... maybe he could get away with this?

[sylla]

Caldrail didn't you miss one in your list.

I don't think C "missed" this one.

I understand that for the greater part of Roman history left handedness was an absolute barrier to military service because the testudo did not work with one southpaw messing up the formation.

May I ask you for your source on this statement?

What I understand is that the left-handed Roman soldiers were simply forced to use their right hand.

Edited June 16, 2009 by sylla

[marcus silanus]

Caldrail didn't you miss one in your list.

Couldn't a young man, determined to avoid military service, simply learn to do EVERYTHING with his left hand?

I understand that for the greater part of Roman history left handedness was an absolute barrier to military service because the testudo did not work with one southpaw messing up the formation.

 

Also that would make a nice round TEN possible ways for your list.

 

Of course if anyone threw him a ball he might accidentally catch it with his right hand which would give him away but maybe ... maybe he could get away with this?

 

I understand that one Gaius Julius Caesar was left-handed. He was no stranger, of course, to military service. It is said that he established the custom of shaking hands with the right, to leave his stronger arm free to attack or defend if needs be, whilst his opponents stronger arm aws thus engaged.

[Trethiwr]

Caldrail didn't you miss one in your list.

I don't think C "missed" this one.

I understand that for the greater part of Roman history left handedness was an absolute barrier to military service because the testudo did not work with one southpaw messing up the formation.

May I ask you for your source on this statement?

What I understand is that the left-handed Roman soldiers were simply forced to use their right hand.

 

Oh right.

Sorry.

I was rather hoping I had something there.

My kids told me about this recently,

and I'm not sure if they got it from school or one of their books.

Hardly a 100% reliable source, but it sounded pretty plausible to me.

However your assertion that they were simply forced to use the right hand is also pretty plausible.

I'm easily convinced.

[Formosus Viriustus]

Those master swordsmen, the Japanese samurai all fought left-handed. There's only one accepted way to use a katana (or the harmless bamboo shinai they use in kendo) and that is left-handed.

 

It's pretty simple really : either you learn or you die.

 

F rmosus

[Maty]

My own guess - and if anyone has any actual information, please do tell! - is that you have to use your right hand when fighting in formation, but since a shield can be used by either hand, in open field play, you can suit yourself. (Also I don't think it is co-incidence that a Roman sword is strapped so that it can be drawn by either hand. Note that one major advantage of being a left-hander is that your opponent is used to fighting right-handers, as are you. So you get an immediate advantage.

 

Finally you can get quite dexterous in using the un-natural hand with practice. Right-handed cardsharps often learn to manipulate a deck of cards with their left, because you hold the deck in that hand when dealing. (I have had a varied education.)

[Formosus Viriustus]

Caldrail didn't you miss one in your list.

Couldn't a young man, determined to avoid military service, simply learn to do EVERYTHING with his left hand?

I understand that for the greater part of Roman history left handedness was an absolute barrier to military service because the testudo did not work with one southpaw messing up the formation.

 

If it would have been as easy as that, why wouldn't you let your hero just be left-handed ?

 

And if you expect your right-handed hero to learn to do EVERYTHING with his left hand, why wouldn't recruitment officers expect left-handers to be able to learn to handle a sword right-handedly ?

 

But being left-handed myself, I find the subject quite fascinating so I've started a new thread on it here.

 

F rmosus