What is the problem with American public schools?

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Ave

One cannot make oneself clearer without showing a little bluntness here - American public school education sucks. It really does. Try to follow this heart-rending programme here:

Although I haven't read any statistics for this, it seems that the dazzlingly brilliant alumni that come out of the U.S consistently every year are generally products of the private education sector. I realize that there is a discrepancy in educational quality between public and private education in Europe, Asia and other places as well, but in the U.S it seems to be much more glaring. What is the reason for this disgraceful state of affairs? Is it really lack of funding as some people claim? And what can be done to correct the problem?

[M. Demetrius]

Ave

One cannot make oneself clearer without showing a little bluntness here - American public school education sucks. It really does. Try to follow this heart-rending programme here:

Although I haven't read any statistics for this, it seems that the dazzlingly brilliant alumni that come out of the U.S consistently every year are generally products of the private education sector. I realize that there is a discrepancy in educational quality between public and private education in Europe, Asia and other places as well, but in the U.S it seems to be much more glaring. What is the reason for this disgraceful state of affairs? Is it really lack of funding as some people claim? And what can be done to correct the problem?

Your assessment is pretty accurate, as far as I can tell. I've sent 4 through the system, and the 5th is a Junior in High School. It's not money, they get lots of that, it's the curriculum that's to blame. Political correctness is one enemy, and that one will grow as time goes by. Another is that the Teacher Union has such a tight grip on the choices that the school boards at all levels make. Huge lobby and PAC influence.

 

I'll leave the varying world view collisions as they are, so as not to get into a philosophical argument here. The anti-religious movement is having its day right now, and that causes some omissions from history to be made.

 

We home schooled our kids for a while, until our situation changed and we couldn't do that any more. At the time they entered the public schools, we had a 7th, 3rd and 1st grader. The principal called in a week or so and said they wanted to put them all into a "Gifted and Talented" program. I asked why, and was told that they were such great students, and so smart. I replied that they were really just normal kids, but they could all read, write, make reports (at their levels, of course) and cipher, because we'd been teaching them to do that. Around here the G&T program is more a social indoctrination into New Age thinking than accellerated education. We eschewed that, because we don't suscribe to that thinking.

 

It's not hard or costly to educate children, but it's sometimes difficult to steer their philosophy, and to cause them to be something they are not. IMHO, that's part of the problem, too.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Well you know schools are the same everywhere in the world. I'm from Belgium and frankly we see students get more and more stupid every year. I felt that when I was in high school, and my view is that the phenomenon grew in the last years as is shown by worse and worse results at the university for the students in first year.

 

But the main problem is not the schools but the society at large and more importantly the parents. They are the one who should provide discipline and basic education, the schools are there mainly for learning and experimenting life in society, but the parents do less and less basic education, they do not teach the basic rules of politeness anymore, they don't interact with their children, they don't do what being a parent is all about. And that is the main problem.

 

If parents don't give books to children, do not check that they do their homeworks every evening before getting on the videogames or tv, do not tell them not to drink alcool, have sex and take drugs then the children will do all these things and trash themselve.

 

So if you want to improve the students then organize a system where parents needs to get a licence to become parents with controls afterward ! Or else have all students live in common in an agoge like system !

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

One problem, from what I've gathered after the many discussions I've had on this subject, is definitely an addiction to the idiot-box, but I don't think that's a peculiarly American phenomenon. Get children hooked on visual stimulation and expect them to perform well academically? Forget it. I once had a dunce of a room-mate who simply couldn't understand how I enjoyed reading books so much. I told him I couldn't understand how he didn't enjoy reading. He replied that whenever he tried to read, his mind simply could not visualize the images the book was offering him. That's when it hit me - an entire generation that grew up having information visually spoon-fed to it is simply not going to take up the challenge of trying to figure out what message the printed page is trying to communicate.

Another problem seems to be the anti-learning culture that children are subjected to in schools. How is a child supposed to be academically encouraged if he/she is constantly being called a nerd or a geek? I can't blame anyone except mass entertainment media for this problem. There is just no intellectual ferment in schools any more. Learning and erudition are not honoured any more. Kids are asked to look up to pond-scum like Tupac Shakur and Snoop Dogg instead of Einstein, Oppenheimer, or Milton or Thackeray.

Sad, really sad.

[docoflove1974]

*Ahem* *Waves hand*

 

Public school kid here. All the way through the PhD...all public education.

 

Really, I see that there are three main problems:

1) Lack of specific funding...which leads to teachers having to do more with less. There are various school districts which do not have enough money for new textbooks, teachers must buy their own school supplies instead of getting them from the school, etc. Of course, the working benefits are amazing...*rolls eyes*...because the pay sucks.

 

2) Standardization as it now stands: essentially, everyone is teaching to an exam, and must get all kids above a certain percentile. While in theory this is fine, the result is that students know how to pass the exam (or can't), and general education has been pushed aside. Also, if you have kids who are learning English still (very common) or who are special needs kids (also very common), they must perform at the same minimum-percentile...and this doesn't work.

 

3) Lack of parent support. This is not going to be a popular issue, but I'm noticing more and more that parents aren't working with their kids as much as before. By that I mean, they expect most of the education to be done at school, and then once the school bell rings, there are so many other activities (or TV time, whatever) that sitting down with the kids to do spelling tests, math tests, and other practice at home is left out. There are plenty of parents who do indeed practice with their kids, and it is those children who tend to be better off.

 

And let's be fair...it's almost a requirement anymore to put your kid in extra-curricular sports, because physical education has been almost cut out completely in many public schools. Same with music and/or art lessons...those are rare in most schools. It's unfathomable that these would be cut out...but it's part of why there are more and more parents who are pulling their kids out of the public schools and either homeschooling them or placing them in the private school of their choice. At least a 'well-rounded education' is mostly there.

 

This only scratches the surface, and indeed is a generalization. But it's part of the problem, at least.

[Moonlapse]

Ahhh, don't get me started. I'll sum it up: more Federal control = more expensive with less quality. Period. The more the Department of Education tries to fix the problems they create with well intended bureaucracy, the worse the problems get. The cultural problems pointed out are catalyzing consequences, not the source of the problem. If parental and local guidance overpowers the effects of schooling bureaucracy, the kid will turn out OK.

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...p;showentry=976

[M. Demetrius]

[ soapbox ]

The previous post reminded me of something I forgot to say earlier. We don't really have public schools in America: we have state schools. A public school is a relic from history, in which the local community would have control and meaningful input into the school board's decisions. Now, with the representative school boards we have, elected people simply do what they think best, once elected. Same upward through the government, to the top echelons in Congress and the White House. I've been to many school board meetings to try to get conflicting or opposing views, and basically, I've noticed that they give you your few minutes to address them, then go on ahead and do what they'd planned to do all along. It's not really a genuine public input.

 

The state/federal rules apply, not community standards, not anything else. I don't mind so much that they require taxes to fund, after all, taxes build highways, not individuals (and I like highways). But it's just silly to think that bureaucracy won't corrupt any institution. The foremost goal of any bureaucracy is self preservation, and self aggrandizement.

 

[ /soapbox ]

[Gaius Octavius]

The public school system in the 20th century was geared up to prepare kids to work in factories. When money is thrown at the school, it goes into the pockets of administrators. The teachers are Viet-Nam draft dodgers. They couldn't pass an exam in the classes they teach. A number of years ago Massachusetts made the entrance test for teachers a little more difficult, and also lowered the passing grade. In Florida most of the candidates couldn't answer the question: If you have 17 pencils and take away 3, how many do you have left? It's quantity, not quality that counts in America.

 

I wish that I had paid attention in school and to my parents.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

One thing I noticed that docoflove made me remember is the fact that in many schools the teachers have gone down to using standard books published by whatever comercial of governemental entity, instead of building their own lessons : each time I've seen teachers prepare their own lessons, write their own exercices, choose their own texts from other books, write their own theory guide I've seen better results among the students, even if the students where bad in overall grades. Why ? Because those teachers are doing their work as they should all do and that when a child see that you've worked in order to provide them with a good lesson then they respec you ( a bit ) more and learn better, and the teacher is better because he knows better the reasons he teaches what he is teaching.

 

But still I maintain the main problem is lack of parental education and involvement.

[Ludovicus]

As a retired public school (city, township, and county supported) teacher, I couldn't agree more with

Docoflove's post above. She listed: Lack of funding, recent standardization, and lack of parental support.

Where I taught, in Philadelphia, a recent study says that city schools lack millions of dollars in funding. Music and art classes are disappearing fast. In regard to parental support, in the poverty stricken schools where I taught, many parents worked two and THREE jobs to make ends meet. My last school was filthy. There was no permanent cleaning staff. Filthy!

 

Yet, there are many good public schools just outside the city limits. You cross the city line from Philadelphia to the upscale Mainline townships and per pupil expenditures leaps by thousands of dollars per pupil. It's a kind of educational apartheid. Public schools in most parts of the US are supported by the local tax gathering body. If a township is wealthy, the schools are good.

[Gaius Octavius]

Throwing money at schools is not the answer. If you look at the NYC school budgets decade after decade, there seems to be an inverse ratio between money expended and return. Superintendents get a 'budget', the most of which winds up in their pockets through outright theft, or via kick backs from contractors. The so called 'community' school boards are nothing more than leeches on the system. A place to park political flunkys at a very nice salary for doing nothing. A while back, a convicted felon, (a politico), was placed on one of those boards with the nice income. Both competent and incompetent teachers get the same raises. No one may be fired. At the end of their careers, they can beef up their pensions. Paid sabbaticals, are for vacations in Europe and nothing more. But ancient school books are used year after year. Both teachers and kids are allowed in school dressed as street arabs, thus engendering no self respect. Fifty years ago, NYC had three high schools that were the envy of the nation - that is not to say that the most were nothing but a parking lot for kids so that mama and papa could go to work. Same for grammar schools.

 

There is absolutely no reason why a kid going to a public school in NYC cannot get the same education as one going to a Swiss boarding school.

[Nephele]

...each time I've seen teachers prepare their own lessons, write their own exercices, choose their own texts from other books, write their own theory guide I've seen better results among the students...

 

I agree. I have a friend who teaches several grades of Latin in her public school system, and she prepares her own creative and innovative lessons, making them fun. Her public school students have excelled on a national level (competing against private school students), and this year one of her students will be the National Junior Classical League president for her state. Two more of her students will be serving as the corresponding and recording secretaries for their state's chapter. Last year her students won a total of 75 ribbons in Latin competitions, as well as 41 National Latin Exam awards and 6 National Mythology awards.

 

My Latin teacher friend isn't an exception when it comes to public school teachers -- I know a creative NYC science teacher and several creative teachers in my own semi-rural school district who strive for excellence in the classroom and achieve outstanding results.

 

When I ask my teacher friends what they think is the biggest problem for their schools, surprisingly, it is not a need for more money that they tell me. What they tell me is that State mandates and continually increasing Federal involvement (such as Bush's "No Child Left Behind" Act) create the greatest problems.

 

Yes, there are public schools that are failing, but there are also public schools that are succeeding. I know that the schools in my district are succeeding because the people of my community are actively involved. So am I, and I don't have children of my own. I'm involved in more ways than merely paying taxes -- and if I wasn't taxed I would pay voluntarily for public education.

 

It's not just parents who need to get involved more in the public schools -- it's all of us. The education of this youngest generation is an investment in everybody's future.

 

-- Nephele

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I must confess I probably have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to private vs public schools because I attended Church schools (both Catholic and Protestant) all my life but I think Docoflove and others like her are a good example of why we cannot generalize about these things. I really think the root cause of the problem here is not funding or lack of it, but the whole environment that a child is exposed to. Now that is where parents and peers play a very substantial role. People simply have to stop exposing their kids to wrong types of role-models, whether in their day-to-day lives or in larger than life situations (such as through TV and other mass media outlets). People need to inculcate love of learning and culture in their children. One of the striking aspects of families that produce academic high achievers is the fact that in these type of circles childrens' hours in front of the TV are restricted or curtailed. That really is something to ponder about. It really comes down to the home and the neighbourhood.