What if..? going back 200 years

[M. Porcius Cato]

I would be in Judaea roughly around the turn of the millennium. I'd like to see if the birth of the world's largest cult was based at all on actual events.

 

I'd like to see you when you got back and to find out if anyone believed you.

[G-Manicus]

I'd certainly be interested in witnessing some of the famous battles ... Cannae, Arausio, Zama, Colline Gate, etc. From a military perspective though, what I most especially would like to see are some of their engineering accomplishments such as Caesar's double walled siege at Alesia and the bridge across the Rhine.

 

I'd like to see how Augustus and Livia treated each other when alone. What was their relationship like? Was there love there? I always wondered why Livia never bore him any children. Was there a reason why? Was Livia different when Augustus wasn't around? How did she treat Julia and her family?

 

I would like to go back and witness the events that prompted the animosity between Marius and Sulla, which ultimately hastened the fall of the Republic.

[Augustus Caesar]

Some tremendous ideas there and one of them at least would certainly cause a rumpus the world over when Primus Pilus came back to tell everyone just how far we have got things wrong with the world and its history - esp. the Christians!! I was watching a show just last night (and I know this may start off a whole new discussion here but please don't) about how new scrolls etc are beginning to enlighten everyone to just what Judas did to betray Jesus - if at all. If you were there PP and came back and told us he merely gave him an affectionate kiss on the cheek before running from the Romans and not to betray him how much would that be taken seriously and what would it change - apart from Judas' own case in history?

 

There are so many things we don't know about this hugely fascinating Empire and its people. The Augusta said it was unfare to have only one era to visit as there could be so many choices and so much to learn. OK then... choose as many as you like but give reasons why.

 

Another point of interest raised was one I am quite interested in myself of course... the relationship between Livia and Augustus. As already stated Livia bore no children to him but was that choice? Did Augustus actually want the hassle? Did Livia just simply concentrate on Tiberius and his advancement to power? Because of the length of time this Empire lasted through the Republic and the Emperors we have so much to look back at...

 

Does anyone find it interesting that the majority of us want to go either to Rome itself or somewhere where the key points in history wre made - generally in Europe? No-one has mentioned anything here in good old Blighty apart from NN who mentioned the 'Saxon Shore fortifications during the independent Britannia period under Carausius'. I would love to be able to watch the building of Hadrian's Wall. How long did it really take? How tall was it? Was it meant as currently understood to be not just defensive but also for controlling trade north and south - a sort of tax collection point? Was it ever attacked? There is currently no direct evidence for this. Was it all covered in plaster and painted? There is, however, evidence for this. Again, there are so many things to discover. What would people actually think of our revelations if we did actually go back in time and brought back the facts? I am assuming that time travel would be understood and accepted by the masses so some liberty has been taken here.

 

Imagine the frenzy of books being written, scholars having to re-learn their history at schools and universities etc. News programs delivering details of new facts that could have absolutely untold power to change our world as we know it. Would the world become unstable or would that be just taking things a tad too far? Would we really want to know all this? Just how much information would you want to give up on your return knowing you could be responsible for changing everything that we thought we took as read about the world? The mind boggles!!!

 

With the diverse topics raised and points of history to visit that have been mentioned in here I now want to look into some other areas of the Roman world I maybe wouldn't have considered before. I began the topic as a bit of fun - and hopefully it remains that - but I now begin to see myself question things a little more than I normally would.

 

One more thing I would like to go back and see is how some of the stuff the Time Team regulars dig up for our viewing pleasure get to be where they are when found - or at least nearby!! Is most of the pottery just broken rubbish or sacrificial or for burial purposes? We know these are true because there is plenty evidence to show this... but to see how it is done and to what extent the people care about this sort of thing would be telling. Yeah, just chucking it in a pit doesn't say much, but deliberately placing it somewhere says so much more. It is not really the placing of the pot either but the mood of the person who places it. What are their thoughts etc? Just to get into their minds would be fascinating. What would you give to "be there"?

 

Plenty more for digestion so I cannot wait to read your responses..... go ahead.. give more than one example then. In fact, be braver, as you are walking through your chosen point in time describe to us just what you 'THINK' you may see... or what you would 'SAY' to those in power. Again, be sensible.... remember you cannot upset the locals or bigwigs with contempt or take liberties.

[Ursus]

Does anyone find it interesting that the majority of us want to go either to Rome itself or somewhere where the key points in history wre made - generally in Europe? No-one has mentioned anything here in good old Blighty apart from NN who mentioned the 'Saxon Shore fortifications during the independent Britannia period under Carausius'.

 

 

I did mention I'd like to see what went on in the break-away empires of the Third Century .... the so-called Gallic and Palmyrene Empires. They were interesting experiments.

[Faustus]

Does anyone find it interesting that the majority of us want to go either to Rome itself or somewhere where the key points in history wre made - generally in Europe? No-one has mentioned anything here in good old Blighty apart from NN who mentioned the 'Saxon Shore fortifications during the independent Britannia period under Carausius'.

..... go ahead.. give more than one example then. In fact, be braver, as you are walking through your chosen point in time describe to us just what you 'THINK' you may see... or what you would 'SAY' to those in power. Again, be sensible.... remember you cannot upset the locals or bigwigs with contempt or take liberties.

I personally go for the Epic Moments, and those are better left to the actors themselves. I wouldn't pretend to know what should be said to someone like a Caesar or a Constantine which leads me to my own second most interesting location; York in Britannia with the proclamation of Constantine (the Great) as Augustus, in 306 by his troops. I tend to visualize things from the eyes of an enlisted man (as I once was) in a military setting, and visualize the mud, dirt, the gear, and military formations, and marches. Being an individual trooper among the ranks in a battalion or company formation, calling for the elevation of your commander to a higher office would be very exciting. To know what was happening from the vantage point of "pre-cognition" would make it even more so. But the reality would be the endless marches, the cadence calls of the centurions (or the "Corporals), the crashing of boots, when called to "order", or marching on the Roman roads, are the real scenes. Only the trooper knows the thrill of the well organized machine of a platoon when every thing is in synchronicity. I would accept that as part of the price of "being there"

 

This has always seemed to me to be a second Rubicon moment (after Gallienus & to the Tetrarchy), which led to a permanent shift of Roman power to the east. It compares with the other earlier moment by setting the stage for a whole new cycle of struggle through military clashes, civil war, and intrigues that seemed to give a new name to the empire with which it was about to be branded until recently as the Byzantine Empire. Constantine the Great came to be as much a man of action, energy, and genius as was Caesar, and he seemed to be equally favored by his troops. He though, at 34 had 31 years following his

Edited December 13, 2007 by Faustus

[DecimusCaesar]

I'd like to visit Diocletian's palace at Spit in Croatia, when it was at its height. I'd also like to see the Palaces at Ravenna, or maybe Hagia Sophia when the church was first built by Justinian.

 

If I could see a battle, I'd might go with the Battle of Milvian Bridge, 28th of October AD 312.

[Augustus Caesar]

If I could see a battle, I'd might go with the Battle of Milvian Bridge, 28th of October AD 312.

 

Not so much as a battle this one but what about when Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon to head into Rome? What were his thoughts? What were the faces of the soldiers like as they anticipated something that was unprecedented? Then for JC to find Rome virtually deserted? What was his face like? Surprise, shock, disbelief or horror?

 

Milvian Bridge? Yeah, I'd go along with that one!

[Melvadius]

Does anyone find it interesting that the majority of us want to go either to Rome itself or somewhere where the key points in history wre made - generally in Europe? No-one has mentioned anything here in good old Blighty apart from NN who mentioned the 'Saxon Shore fortifications during the independent Britannia period under Carausius'.

 

<SNIP>

 

One more thing I would like to go back and see is how some of the stuff the Time Team regulars dig up for our viewing pleasure get to be where they are when found - or at least nearby!! Is most of the pottery just broken rubbish or sacrificial or for burial purposes? We know these are true because there is plenty evidence to show this... but to see how it is done and to what extent the people care about this sort of thing would be telling. Yeah, just chucking it in a pit doesn't say much, but deliberately placing it somewhere says so much more. It is not really the placing of the pot either but the mood of the person who places it. What are their thoughts etc? Just to get into their minds would be fascinating. What would you give to "be there"?

 

I suppose that I should admit that the temple site I was thinking of is one that I have dug in Britain so I have a little insight into your query about and indeed the archaeological issues surrounding 'sacrificial' offerings at such sites.

 

At the site I worked on, as I have already mentioned, there are no inscriptions to indicate which god it was dedicated to [- its use as a religious site actually predated the Roman invasion]. Various suggestions have been made, on the basis of particular votive items that have been found. They range of items with probable links to particular gods are not great and although most seem to indicate a link to a mother goddess cult [others] could, as some have suggested, equally indicate an aspect of Mercury may (also) have been worshipped there. The range of material is confusing and one or two other (aspects of) Romano-British gods have also been suggested.

 

On the general point about sacrificial material there is strong evidence that sacrifices were carried out with[in] the temple precinct as several large pits have been found containing a mixture of bones, votive offerings and broken pots close to the walls [inside] the temple precinct. These have obviously been deposited in layers and over a considerable period of time because of the number of finds and the size and number of intercut pits. The suggestion here is that once a sacrifice had been made to the gods the items offered up were still considered sacred so had to be buried with due reverence within the sacred area of the temple precinct.

 

Obviously there is a lot of confusion with such sites - especially when their use and the gods worshipped may have changed over time which has led to a lot of speculation so possibly multiple visits would be required to plot the changes

 

[Edits marked]

Edited December 21, 2007 by Melvadius

[Northern Neil]

I think what we would all find is that, unlike the 'Mel Gibson' view of history, where everything is black and white, there would be a lot of indeterminacy. For example, Hadrian's Wall may well have been plastered and whitewashed - when it was first built. Maybe, like maintaining all the signal turrets, it was considered prohibitively expensive after the Severan reconstruction, and through the next 200 years of its occupancy. Maybe the practice was revived again during Valentinian's refurbishment of the frontiers, given that this Emperor was keen on making political gestures to barbarians. So, we would probably find that 'Hadrians Wall was whitewashed and plastered - sometimes.'

 

We would probably find that 'The cities of Gaul did not recover after the barbarian incursions of the 3rd century' - in some instances only. Trier and Arles would have continued to grow. Perhaps the ones that never recovered were not economically viable in the first place, and had for decades been propped up by government subsidies, which were removed during the 'crisis'.

 

Milvian Bridge probably happened much as has been described - with the exclusion of the 'sign of the cross'. I mean, does anyone really believe that this happened? It is significant that this bit was recorded once the battle was virtually out of living memory.

 

We would probably find that Augustus was very passionate about the conventions of the republic, and simply regarded himself the latest in a line of figures such as Sulla, Marius and Caesar. But this has been discussed a lot by people far more informed about the Republic than I.

 

We would find things that may surprise us totally, and that Victorian assumptions we still hold about things would simply not apply. For example, the Belgae/lowland Britons are described as looking like Germans. Maybe 'England' was Germanic speaking way before the landing of Hengest and Horsa? Maybe 'Celtic' always has been confined to the West? Geneticists and linguists are certainly starting to think so.

 

One thing, I feel, is certain. Blanket statements about 'what the Romans did', 'This place was occupied by' or 'This happened when...' would certainly not apply universally.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Northern Neil

[Maladict]

I'm afraid witnessing these 'seminal moments' of Roman history would generally be huge let-downs, if they actually happened at all. Many of them are only important in hind-sight, and would not have been thought of as such at the time.

I'd rather spend the time just wandering around the empire, finding out if we've gotten things right about the material culture, and looking for things that have now vanished without a trace.

That said, I doubt I could resist following an emperor around, seeing him go about his business for a day or so.

[Gaius Octavius]

I'm afraid witnessing these 'seminal moments' of Roman history would generally be huge let-downs, if they actually happened at all. Many of them are only important in hind-sight, and would not have been thought of as such at the time.

I'd rather spend the time just wandering around the empire, finding out if we've gotten things right about the material culture, and looking for things that have now vanished without a trace.

That said, I doubt I could resist following an emperor around, seeing him go about his business for a day or so.

 

That deserves an amen.

[Nephele]

That said, I doubt I could resist following an emperor around, seeing him go about his business for a day or so.

 

You might find yourself written up in history as an early celebrity stalker!

 

Seriously, I like your idea of just wandering around and observing things.

 

Because, if one could go back in history specifically to witness some momentous event (even if it might have turned out to be a let-down, as you suggest), one's attention might be so concentrated on watching expectantly for that event to happen (so as not to miss it!), that one might thereby miss a lot of other interesting things going on around oneself.

 

-- Nephele

[G-Manicus]

I'll take witnessing the historical events myself. I'd have to take that whole Star Trek vow of non-interference though (or whatever the hell it is).

 

Otherwise I'd be in Varro's face at Cannae going "It's a TRAP you idiot! He's going to SURROUND you!"

 

[G-Manicus]

I'll take witnessing the historical events myself. I'd have to take that whole Star Trek vow of non-interference though (or whatever the hell it is).

I'm guessing MPC would take the same vow of non-interference ... especially if he was sent back to oh, say March of 44 BC. Well, until it came time to talk his boys into whacking Antony that is.

Edited December 21, 2007 by G-Manicus