Western Perceptions of Islam

[spittle]

I recently searched for a book that simply told the story of the beginnings of the Islamic faith and detailed the larger events, such as the events leading to the Sunny/Shi'ia schism. I'm not religious, or even spiritual, I just wanted to read about the factors, events and characters that helped make one of the worlds major faths.

So I go to Amazon, click on books and type 'Islam' into the search panel, then 'go'.

 

Every single book that I was shown was either an 'expose of ' or 'myth of Islamic tolerance' etc, etc.

EVERY TITLE ADVERTISED WAS NEGATIVE!

 

To me this speaks volumes.

 

I welcome comments and suggestions.

I'm not looking for attempts to convert me I simply hope to learn how this major religion progressed from a select few in Arabia to a huge geogrphical block.

[Marcus Caelius]

On my shelf are a copy of the Koran (of course!), "The Battle for God" and "A History of God," both by Karen Armstrong and both dealing with the three related religions, and "Islam," 5th ed, by Caesar E. Farah. This last was given me by a practicing Muslim, and is a pretty definitive introduction to Islam's history, teachings and attributes.

 

BTW, you should be aware that there's a "plain English" translation out there of the Koran, that is considered unreliable by most Muslims. I forget the translator, but he was an Iraqui Christian, and it is/was available in paperback from the major book chains. You can obtain "authentic" copies from the Saudi embassy or your nearest mosque. Each page contains the original Arabic alongside a column of English translation, and there is English-language commentary across the bottom. These books are a little hard to get used to because, while the English reads normally, the Arabic takes precedence; this means that the front cover is what we think of as the back, and the pages turn left-to-right.

[Melvadius]

Spittle has already given what appear reasonable alternatives but out of curiosity I did a quick search on Google for 'History of Islam books'.

 

"The Oxford History of Islam" by John Esposito (published by the Oxford University Press) came out pretty much top of the list. Strangely enough, when considering your search results, this listing was on Amazon. From a brief check of a few reviews of the book on Amazon and elsewhere, including comments about the author's background, it looks like this could easily also be much more even-handed in its approach than the books you seem to have previously found on Amazon.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Melvadius

[Faustus]

I'm going to suggest an author, Bernard Lewis , and if you follow the link by clicking on his name, you will be taken to a site where you can read some comments and replies by and to Dr Lewis. Read the pertinent ones and if you find those interesting, I'd suggest that instead of doing a lot of exploration on the internet, which I'm sure is very useful, just go to your local large bookstore and take some of his books off the shelf, find a comfortable place to sit, and look through them. I discovered his work on Islam while sitting in waiting rooms, reading reviews of books in Time or Newsweek, and was moved to further reading of his work on the subject which you inquire.

 

Titles of books can be misleading because they can be phrased in an attempt to reach a broader reading public, so don't judge a book by it's title, but more by what you find inside its pages.

 

Here's one title and an excerpt from a New York Times review:

THE CRISIS OF ISLAM (Holy War and Unholy Terror)

"The Crisis of Islam is rich with the eloquence and erudition for which Lewis has become known and admired. . .[A showcase of] his knowledge of the history, historiography, jurisprudence, and customs of Islamic society in the Middle East."

 

And on the same book, one by National Review :

"Bernard Lewis is justly regarded as the world's premier living authority on the history of the Middle East and the Arab world. . . Lewis meets, with his customary excellence, the particular needs of a new generation of readers. . .[He] provides an excellent brief summary. . .with an intellectual sensitivity that makes his book a source of remarkable insights, and a joy to read.

[caldrail]

There's an internet cafe I use infrequently. Its sited in an area of immigrant people, many of them muslim (the proprietor is - I've seen him using his prayer mat behind the desk). Now, as individuals, I have no arguement with these people. I do not like zealotry of any kind, its too dangerous and irrational for my sensibilities, and whilst I've no reason to believe that anyone sitting at the computers there are terrorists hell bent on destroying western civilisation as e know it, there's always an uncomfortable feeling. Clearly I'm viewed as an outsider, tolerated because society says discrimination is wrong and heck, I suppose my money is as good as anyone elses. Here's the difference though - whilst I will quite happily converse and deal with these people as required, they seem very reluctant to do so with me. Why? I'm an ordinary citizen, I'm a customer, I don't bother anyone else unduly nor do I hold their culture(s) in contempt. But at the same time this feeling of seperation (it isn't rejection thankfully) isn't conducive to good relations is it? I suspect this is true of many people, not just me. How much of this atmosphere is down to the media? Our collective opinion? Our tribal inclinations? Is this a result of bomb blasts or rabble-rousing clerics in foreign lands? To what extent are we influenced by word of mouth as opposed to establishment sources? I have to be honest -whilst I would like to be objective about this its difficult to be so in the light of terrorism and all its random barbarity.

[Ursus]

I have felt the same feelings of wary alienation you describe - in the presence of militant Protestant cults, who are hardly terrorists by the conventional sense of the world. It is simply a matter of a cult latching onto what it perceives as an exclusive truth, with everyone outside that cult not to be fully trusted until they are converted and shown "the truth." Islam and Christianity both have the mentality - the problem with Islam is that as a whole it has not gone through the equivalent of a secular Enlightenment.

 

As far as objective assessments, I can give you a website: www.religioustolerance.org

[spittle]

There's an internet cafe I use infrequently. Its sited in an area of immigrant people, many of them muslim (the proprietor is - I've seen him using his prayer mat behind the desk). Now, as individuals, I have no arguement with these people. I do not like zealotry of any kind, its too dangerous and irrational for my sensibilities, and whilst I've no reason to believe that anyone sitting at the computers there are terrorists hell bent on destroying western civilisation as e know it, there's always an uncomfortable feeling. Clearly I'm viewed as an outsider, tolerated because society says discrimination is wrong and heck, I suppose my money is as good as anyone elses. Here's the difference though - whilst I will quite happily converse and deal with these people as required, they seem very reluctant to do so with me. Why? I'm an ordinary citizen, I'm a customer, I don't bother anyone else unduly nor do I hold their culture(s) in contempt. But at the same time this feeling of seperation (it isn't rejection thankfully) isn't conducive to good relations is it? I suspect this is true of many people, not just me. How much of this atmosphere is down to the media? Our collective opinion? Our tribal inclinations? Is this a result of bomb blasts or rabble-rousing clerics in foreign lands? To what extent are we influenced by word of mouth as opposed to establishment sources? I have to be honest -whilst I would like to be objective about this its difficult to be so in the light of terrorism and all its random barbarity.

 

 

I have felt the same feelings of wary alienation you describe - in the presence of militant Protestant cults, who are hardly terrorists by the conventional sense of the world. It is simply a matter of a cult latching onto what it perceives as an exclusive truth, with everyone outside that cult not to be fully trusted until they are converted and shown "the truth." Islam and Christianity both have the mentality - the problem with Islam is that as a whole it has not gone through the equivalent of a secular Enlightenment.

 

As far as objective assessments, I can give you a website: www.religioustolerance.org

 

I have also experienced the 'outsider' feeling whilst among Muslims BUT I found that Pakistani's are really bad for this whilst Bangladeshi's and Indian Muslims are as welcoming as can be....And with the Pakistani's it is only the younger, (ironically) more westernised one's that seem so close knit and clique like.

At one point I attempted to learn Urdu (the second language in Yorkshire, Northern England) but I was met with resistance, at best, and pure rudeness by many. Fortunateley HINDI is virtually the same spoken language (different written script) and a few Indian guys were a great help.

 

Indians and Bangladeshi Muslims I know also report that Pakistani youths are very unfriendly and even violent towards them. I have heard them described as 'racist', which I found confusing at first (one Asian Muslim calling another Asian Muslim a racist!) but I now understand and agree.

 

Pakistani's have failed to integrate into British society anywhere near as well as other Muslims (Indian, Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin - one of Britains most prosperous minorities or, to a lesser extent, Bangladeshi's.

Pakistani's also have one of the lowest earnings, academic qualifications or life expectancies of British migrant groups. And crime is endemic in the area's they congregate in.

 

So I believe its a National rather than Religious set of factors that cause this.

[Melvadius]

I have worked with several Indian's, Pakistani's and Bangladeshi over the years so have a small understanding of some of the pressures the various communities are under. Unfortunately if my understanding is at all correct (and I am open to correction) it is probably a mixture of religious and ethnic factors at work. As far as I am aware a large number of Bangladeshi's originally come from the 'untouchable' caste while Pakastan's major ethnic group come from the higher Pathan caste which is an obvious cause for some of the difficulties. I won't go to far into other problems like that of Kashmir, which had a majority Muslim population but ended up split between both countries at partition, and the cause of a continuing shooting war, because the local ruler was Hindu and chose Indian membership over Pakistani.

 

As far as mixing with other communities are concerned that is not necessarily racist but it is obviously easier for any large immigrant community to stick together, especially when members can feel that consciously or unconsciously they are under attack for their race and/or religion by the media and pretty much everyone else they meet. It takes lot for them to learn to trust any interloper into territoriy that they may have come to see as that of their own community. Similar pressures have operated over the centuries with pretty much all large groupings settling in new territory and led to some if not all of the same conflicts - in this respect America has had several of its own ghetto's.

 

A lot of it boils down to perceptions and sometimes if you really checked through the real as opposed to press reported crime fugures you may find that these area's are not the hot bed of trouble that everyone thinks they are.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Melvadius

[Ludovicus]

Every single book that I was shown was either an 'expose of ' or 'myth of Islamic tolerance' etc, etc.

EVERY TITLE ADVERTISED WAS NEGATIVE!

 

To me this speaks volumes.

 

I welcome comments and suggestions.

I'm not looking for attempts to convert me I simply hope to learn how this major religion progressed from a select few in Arabia to a huge geogrphical block.

 

 

I don't have a source for you that outlines the basic tenets of Islam. Nonetheless, there are books in English that highlight the positive and creative aspects of Muslim civilization. Here are three that can be found on Amazon.com:

 

 

1. "Aristotle's Children: How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and Illuminated the Middle Ages" by Richard E. Rubenstein

2. "A Vanished World: Muslims, Christians, and Jews in Medieval Spain," by Chris Lowney

3. "The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain" by Maria Rosa Menocal

 

Islam occupies a very special historical niche. Muslims preserved and then reintroduced Aristotle's works to the West after many of them had been forgotten by post-Roman societies. Although the Arabs conquered Spain and imposed their civilization there, for many years there was a tolerance among the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim populations that was hardly ever seen in contemporary Catholic Europe.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Ludovicus

[Marcus Caelius]

I have also experienced the 'outsider' feeling whilst among Muslims...

 

I've felt it in Quebec, whenever I've opened my mouth and my Vermont-accented French comes out. They all stare at me, and from that point on they're talking about me and laughing at me behind my back.

 

The first time I ever remember feeling that way, though, was in Detroit, in the Northland shopping mall. My lilly-white butt had me sticking out like a sore thumb, and I could tell they were just waiting to rape my wife and steal my hubcaps.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Marcus Caelius

[Ludovicus]

I have also experienced the 'outsider' feeling whilst among Muslims...

 

I've felt it in Quebec, whenever I've opened my mouth and my Vermont-accented French comes out. They all stare at me, and from that point on they're talking about me and laughing at me behind my back.

 

The first time I ever remember feeling that way, though, was in Detroit, in the Northland shopping mall. My lilly-white butt had me sticking out like a sore thumb, and I could tell they were just waiting to rape my wife and steal my hubcaps.

 

 

What an incredible comment. Maybe you need to laugh at yourself for putting these racist thoughts in your mind.

[Marcus Caelius]

What an incredible comment. Maybe you need to laugh at yourself for putting these racist thoughts in your mind.

 

Apparently the irony went right over your head. What I'm saying, and what you're not hearing, is that these "outsider" feelings are generated internally *at least* as much as externally, and like as not have no rational basis. OTOH, the "us-them" feeling is demonstrable in virtually all creatures, down to the insects (and probably even further). As such, it's not to be wondered at when we "discover" that we have it in ourselves; the only thing to be concerned about is what we do with and about it. Myself, I try to ignore it but, being a fallible human, I often fail. When that happens, I try to back up and go at it again.

 

BTW, I likewise see nothing wrong with admitting to these feelings. Denying their existence won't make them go away, and may even make the situation worse.

 

If you really want to think of me as a horrible human being, try this: I felt bloody awkward while browsing through a homosexual novelty shop in Key West last spring. I also feel mildly embarrassed passing by Victoria's Secret. I guess that makes me a misogynistic homophobe.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Marcus Caelius

[Gaius Octavius]

Please forgive me, but I would like to know if this thread has gone off 'topic' or become 'cryptic' and 'opaque'?

 

Pater Arcanae

[Melvadius]

Possibly to swing it slightly back in the right (or should that be left direction?)

 

On the subject of feeling out of place I am told by someone who studied psychology that under test conditions children as young as two have been known to identify people who are not members of their own community and/or do not operate under the 'normal' rules for their community.

 

On a personal note myself and a group of friends on a visit to America some years back found ourselves in an area where there was definite resentment to our presence, which was only mitigated when the locals found out we really were foreign tourists so not a threat to them.

 

As I said in my earlier posting it often comes down to individual experiences and the attitudes of people around them how people will perceive thier individual situation. Constant carping about Muslim threats by a large proportion of the press can easily lead to people only noticing negative rather than constructive stories. The abortive bomb attack in Scotand could easily have led to a series of 'revenge' attacks on the Muslim community but well publicised quick joint action against the attacks by both local community and political leaders stopped most of that resentment before it had a chance to get entrenched.

[Ursus]

Sent to the Arena.