A New Palestine?

[spittle]

Does anyone think there is an actual solution to the problems of the region?

 

A decade ago there seemed to be no light at the end of the tunnel for Ireland but look now!

I know Northern Ireland was a picnic compared to the middle east but still.....

 

Suggestions of genocide/nuclear annihilation really aren't helpful.

[Nephele]

From the Washington Report on the Middle East:

 

"A forthcoming edition of Fortune magazine ranks the American Israel Public Affairs Committee as the second most powerful interest group in Washington...

 

The American Association of Retired Persons polled Number One in that same survey of "Washington's Power 25," making senior citizens (as Spittle put it) "the strongest lobby in American politics."

 

And, for anyone who is interested, the remaining top lobbies in positions 3 through 10 (according to Fortune) were these:

 

3. The AFL-CIO

4. The National Federation of Independent Business

5. The Association of Trial Lawyers of America

6. The National Rifle Association

7. The Christian Coalition

8. The American Medical Association

9. The National Education Association

10. The National Right to Life Committee

 

Having read the original article from Fortune, I think it's important to note that Fortune also made mention to precisely what each of these top organizations actually owed their high rankings. "Fully half of the top ten groups in the FORTUNE survey were propelled there on the strength of their long-established grassroots networks" -- not so with AIPAC, which owed its position primarily to campaign contributions, whereas Fortune states that "these days, interest organizations are valued more for the votes they can deliver."

 

Considering that the "forthcoming edition" of Fortune quoted here was published ten years ago, it would be interesting to see how each of these 1997 Top Ten rank today.

 

Full article is here: Washington's Power 25

 

-- Nephele

[Melvadius]

Does anyone think there is an actual solution to the problems of the region?

 

A decade ago there seemed to be no light at the end of the tunnel for Ireland but look now!

I know Northern Ireland was a picnic compared to the middle east but still.....

 

Suggestions of genocide/nuclear annihilation really aren't helpful.

 

I rather suspect curtailing the US$ 2.5 to 3billion assorted aid (mainly military) given every year to Israel by the US government would go a long way to concentrating the minds of the Knesset on finding a long-term peaceful settlement.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...to_Israel1.html

[Ludovicus]

On a more disturbing note I am noticing similarities between the Israeli's treatment of Arabs (walling them into ghetto's) to the Nazi's threatment of Polish Jews in the early occupation of Poland.

 

 

I think the use of collective punishment is certainly one of the most alarming features of Israel's occupation of the West Bank. Some have noted similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu recently has joined the discussion, from the Guardian:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0...,706911,00.html

Edited December 6, 2007 by Ludovicus

[Kosmo]

And, for anyone who is interested, the remaining top lobbies in positions 3 through 10 (according to Fortune) were these:

 

3. The AFL-CIO

4. The National Federation of Independent Business

5. The Association of Trial Lawyers of America

6. The National Rifle Association

7. The Christian Coalition

8. The Association of Trial Lawyers of America

9. The National Education Association

10. The National Right to Life Committee

 

-- Nephele

 

A small error - on 8 it's American Medical Association, not again the the sharks.

[Nephele]

And, for anyone who is interested, the remaining top lobbies in positions 3 through 10 (according to Fortune) were these:

 

3. The AFL-CIO

4. The National Federation of Independent Business

5. The Association of Trial Lawyers of America

6. The National Rifle Association

7. The Christian Coalition

8. The Association of Trial Lawyers of America

9. The National Education Association

10. The National Right to Life Committee

 

-- Nephele

 

A small error - on 8 it's American Medical Association, not again the the sharks.

 

Thank you -- correction made. Heheh, "the sharks."

 

-- Nephele

[M. Porcius Cato]

On a more disturbing note I am noticing similarities between the Israeli's treatment of Arabs (walling them into ghetto's) to the Nazi's threatment of Polish Jews in the early occupation of Poland.

 

The similarity is totally superficial and concrete-bound.

 

Arabs aren't being walled into ghettos--they're being kept out of Israel, a nation that has been under constant siege from its Arab neighbors from the moment of its inception. The purpose of the wall is to defend Israel from racist Arab supremacists who want to wipe Israel off the map.

 

For the parallel to be exact, Poland would have to have been surrounded by Jewish states that had recently declared war on Poland, and the local Jewish population would have to have participated or been complicit in terrorist actions against Polish civilians, including the bombing of discotheques, murder of Polish Olympic athletes, and part of political movements that failed to recognize the right of Poland to exist.

 

The only similarity between the two walls is that they're both made of concrete--rather like the analogy between the two walls.

Edited December 6, 2007 by M. Porcius Cato

[G-Manicus]

The purpose of the wall is to defend Israel from racist Arab supremacists who want to wipe Israel off the map.

If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there'd be no more fighting.

 

If the Israelis laid down their arms, there'd be no more Israel.

[Melvadius]

On a more disturbing note I am noticing similarities between the Israeli's treatment of Arabs (walling them into ghetto's) to the Nazi's threatment of Polish Jews in the early occupation of Poland.

 

The similarity is totally superficial and concrete-bound.

 

Arabs aren't being walled into ghettos--they're being kept out of Israel, a nation that has been under constant siege from its Arab neighbors from the moment of its inception. The purpose of the wall is to defend Israel from racist Arab supremacists who want to wipe Israel off the map.

 

For the parallel to be exact, Poland would have to have been surrounded by Jewish states that had recently declared war on Poland, and the local Jewish population would have to have participated or been complicit in terrorist actions against Polish civilians, including the bombing of discotheques, murder of Polish Olympic athletes, and part of political movements that failed to recognize the right of Poland to exist.

 

The only similarity between the two walls is that they're both made of concrete--rather like the analogy between the two walls.

 

Well let us see - you wish to draw on parallels for 'terrorist' activity we have the Irgun carrying out the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel in Tel Aviv under the leadership of Menachem Begin, later Prime Minister of Israel.

 

Then there was the assassination of a British Minister in 1944 and in 1948 the UN peace negotiator both by the 'Stern Gang'. At least the last of these with the knowledge, if not complicity, of Israel's founding Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion and under the command of Yitzhak Shamir, who later became Prime Minister himself.

 

http://www.spectacle.org/495/deir.html

 

Can we stop throwing stones - there are more than enough to go round on all sides. As I've already said the only way out of this is for both sides to negotiate and if that means giving both Hamas and Fatah a fair hearing and for them to strike a bargain they don't fully like with Israel that is the only way it can succeed.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Well let us see - you wish to draw on parallels for 'terrorist' activity we have the Irgun carrying out the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel in Tel Aviv under the leadership of Menachem Begin, later Prime Minister of Israel. Then there was the assassination of a British Minister in 1944 and in 1948 the UN peace negotiator both by the 'Stern Gang'. At least the last of these with the knowledge, if not complicity, of Israel's founding Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion and under the command of Yitzhak Shamir, who later became Prime Minister himself.

 

I condemn these attacks too, and it's one of the reasons that the US was not always an enthusiastic supporter of Israel. Not that this bit of history ever enters into discussions of US-Israeli relations.

 

But now let's carry the analogy through--did Menachem Begin believe that Britain had a right to exist? Did he maintain that a pan-Jewish state should spread from Jerusalem to Cadiz? Did the founders of Israel oppose diplomatic recognition of Britain? Of course not. Why not? And why does Hamas oppose Israel's right to exist, endorse the return of the Caliphae, and oppose recognition of Israel? Because, unlike the Israeli opposition to Britain, Hamas is racist, and it want to wipe out the Jews--just like the Nazis.

[Northern Neil]

I think it is a matter of record that Israel treats Arabs on its own soil as second class citizens, and frequently agitates the Palestinians. The current round of hostiliies - now several years in progress - was deliberately kick - started by the actions of Benjamin Netnyahu. Since then, Israel has systematically attempted to dismantle the security services and infrastructure of the Palestinian territories. There are very real parrallels between the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians and the way black south Africans were treated during apartheid.

 

As previously stated, If Israel had gotten behind its pre-67 boundaries when the PLO was a secular political group peace might have broken out. The association with Hamas has grown out of repeated broken promises to moderate Palestinians and constant refusal by western governments to condemn Israels annexation of Arab territory.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Northern Neil

[Melvadius]

I think it is a matter of record that Israel treats Arabs on its own soil as second class citizens, and frequently agitates the Palestinians. The current round of hostiliies - now several years in progress - was deliberately kick - started by the actions of Benjamin Netnyahu. Since then, Israel has systematically attempted to dismantle the security services and infrastructure of the Palestinian territories. There are very real parrallels between the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians and the way black south Africans were treated during apartheid.

 

As previously stated, If Israel had gotten behind its pre-67 boundaries when the PLO was a secular political group peace might have broken out. The association with Hamas has grown out of repeated broken promises to moderate Palestinians and constant refusal by western governments to condemn Israels annexation of Arab territory.

 

I would also add the systematic destruction of the Fatah police force and government along with the assassination of anyone with power and influence over significant portions of the Palestinians. Let us not forget, even if done by a 'religious fanatic', the assassination of the first Israeli Prime Minister prepared to negotiate a peaceful settlement with a Palestinian leader who at that time was accepted by all Palestinians.

[spittle]

Many palestianians have to spend half their live's waiting at Isreali checkpoints to crossover to their jobs, their schools, even hospitals. One seriously ill man actually died waiting for the Isreali guards to allow him to pass through and get to the E.R!

If you cannot see a mirror of German trreatment of Jews to this totally unbending treatment of Arabs.....THEY ARE REGARDED AS LESS THAN HUMAN.

 

This type of repression has created more potential enemies of the state of isreal than any religious ideology.

 

And since when was punishing the innocent with the guilty acceptable?

 

I agree with the Isreali tactic of targeted assassination. I believe a 'big brother' style monitoring of their territory and borders is necessary to stop the fanatics BUT treating all palestinians as criminals is just plain wrong.

[Ludovicus]

So, can America bring peace to the Middle East? They will define the boundaries ...

 

 

Yes, "boundries" is a an important word here, and without a doubt, the lack of resolution inflames reaction on the Palestinian side. Unless Israeli illegal settlements are withdraw, any new Palestinian state would look like Swiss cheese, full of holes. The other alternative is to have these settlements in the West Bank be incorporated into Palestine.

[Melvadius]

<SNIP>...since when was punishing the innocent with the guilty acceptable?

 

I agree with the Isreali tactic of targeted assassination. I believe a 'big brother' style monitoring of their territory and borders is necessary to stop the fanatics BUT treating all palestinians as criminals is just plain wrong.

 

Unfortunately for this view there is rarely such a thing as a 'targeted assassination' using fairly indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets by planes, long range missiles or bombs all run a high risk of leading to large numbers of civilian casulties. Especially when, as has all too often been the case in recent years, such attacks have been made against popular and/or relatively moderate Palestinians. [EDIT] It can only aggravate the situation and lead to more death on both sides even if there are not direct civilian casulties [Close Edit]

 

Moshe Dayan came to the conclusion shortly before his death that it was better to talk and create a safe peace for [ALL of] Israel's children than crying over past wrongs. It is high time the current Israeli and Palestininian leadership learnt the same lesson.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Melvadius