End of Antiquity marker?

[Ludovicus]

When a culture forgets its history & sacred founding places doesn't that signal a qualitative change? Would the loss of the Cave of the Lupercale, recently discovered by Italian archaeologists, have marked for ancient Roman culture a significant milestone on the road to post Antiquity? I can see one of the 6th century popes attending the sealing off of the cave and saying "That's the end of THAT."

 

A recently discovered cave under or very near the palace of Augustus may be the site of the Cave of the Lupercale, believed by many today to have been the ancient shrine of Roman Antiquity. A cave of this type was revered by the Romans as the place where the she wolf (lupa) suckled Romulus and Remus.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Ludovicus

[Faustus]

When a culture forgets its history & sacred founding places doesn't that signal a qualitative change? Would the loss of the Cave of the Lupercale, recently discovered by Italian archaeologists, have marked for ancient Roman culture a significant milestone on the road to post Antiquity? I can see one of the 6th century popes attending the sealing off of the cave and saying "That's the end of THAT."

Salve Ludovicus,

 

That quasi-quote wouldn't have been the first time a variation of like words were spoken. The Archeologist I.A Richmond describes an equivalent gesture, not in a founding place but at the other end of the historical time-frame. The equivalent act created what have turned out to be some of the easiest of archaeological finds, freighted with the same meaning: Pagan icons and statues, Roman coins with Roman gods or Roman coins with images of Emperors 'who would be gods', thrown in the pits of outhouses (toilets) by early Christians.

 

Not of the same importance, I admit, nor do I want to go off topic, but with the same implied message: "We'll be done with this."

 

When dug up, they would be found buried in a sort of compostlike material.

[Horatius]

"That's the end of THAT."

LOL Reminds me of that painting in the Vatican Palace " triumph of Christianity " No subtle symbolism here!

[Ludovicus]

"That's the end of THAT."

LOL Reminds me of that painting in the Vatican Palace " triumph of Christianity " No subtle symbolism here!

 

I'm not a cheerleader for the demise of Christianity, being a Christian myself. My original post under this thread was to argue for a novel marker for the beginning of medieval Rome, i.e. the loss of the Cave of the Lupercale.

What do UNRVers think?

[Faustus]

I'll take your leap. My guess, though not a very educated one, is that the marker you look for is the moment when The fate of Europe ceased to be, to whatever degree, in the hands of The Emperor of Rome (west) and became more a province of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

So then, that moment of history would begin when the people of the Roman empire became so indifferent that their allegiance became more attached to Christianity, and the possible life hereafter than the one they lived as Roman citizens. It was then that an empire could no longer by sustained, and Christianity in the entity of the R C C, as the one stable institution among the ruins, would step into the dominant role of guiding European civilization.

 

It was Christianity and the R C C

Edited November 24, 2007 by Faustus

[Ludovicus]

I'll take your leap. My guess, though not a very educated one, is that the marker you look for is the moment when The fate of Europe ceased to be, to whatever degree, in the hands of The Emperor of Rome (west) and became more a province of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

So then, that moment of history would begin when the people of the Roman empire became so indifferent that their allegiance became more attached to Christianity, and the possible life hereafter than the one they lived as Roman citizens. It was then that an empire could no longer by sustained, and Christianity in the entity of the R C C, as the one stable institution among the ruins, would step into the dominant role of guiding European civilization.

 

It was Christianity and the R C C

Edited November 24, 2007 by Ludovicus

[Faustus]

I'll take your leap. My guess, though not a very educated one, is that the marker you look for is the moment when The fate of Europe ceased to be, to whatever degree, in the hands of The Emperor of Rome (west) and became more a province of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

So then, that moment of history would begin when the people of the Roman empire became so indifferent that their allegiance became more attached to Christianity, and the possible life hereafter than the one they lived as Roman citizens. It was then that an empire could no longer by sustained, and Christianity in the entity of the R C C, as the one stable institution among the ruins, would step into the dominant role of guiding European civilization.

 

It was Christianity and the R C C

Edited November 25, 2007 by Faustus

[Nephele]

would/wouldn't the below painting by Poussin fill the description of a "marker' for The Jewish People?

~~~~ Destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem (by Rome) ~~~~

 

Not if one's definition of such a "marker" (as expressed in the original posting in this thread), is that it be an indication of a culture having forgotten its "history and sacred founding places."

 

The destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem was a loss to the Jewish people, to be sure. But the physical destruction of the Temple (both times -- first by the Babylonians, and the second time by the Romans) didn't result in its ever being forgotten, as was the case of Rome's Cave of the Lupercale. In fact, the destruction has been commemorated over the generations, resulting annually in a period of intense mourning in worldwide Judaism which culminates on a day called Tisha b'Av. It's a coincidence that, both times the Temple was destroyed, it occurred on this same date -- the ninth of the month of Av (which, in the Western calendar, generally falls around the end of July to beginning of August).

 

While it's true that "a qualitative change" (as expressed in the original posting) occurred in Judaism with the eventual disappearance of the Sadducees sect following the destruction of the Temple, the history and the Temple itself have never been forgotten. Jews have always marked the year of the Temple's destruction as a reference point for calculating dates. And, the tradition of the groom at the end of his wedding breaking a glass underfoot is meant to bring to mind the destruction of the Temple. That, even on the happiest of days -- one's wedding day -- we remember the saddest of days.

 

-- Nephele

[Faustus]

would/wouldn't the below painting by Poussin fill the description of a "marker' for The Jewish People?

~~~~ Destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem (by Rome) ~~~~

 

Not if one's definition of such a "marker" (as expressed in the original posting in this thread), is that it be an indication of a culture having forgotten its "history and sacred founding places."

 

The destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem was a loss to the Jewish people, to be sure. But the physical destruction of the Temple (both times -- first by the Babylonians, and the second time by the Romans) didn't result in its ever being forgotten, as was the case of Rome's Cave of the Lupercale. In fact, the destruction has been commemorated over the generations, resulting annually in a period of intense mourning in worldwide Judaism which culminates on a day called Tisha b'Av. It's a coincidence that, both times the Temple was destroyed, it occurred on this same date -- the ninth of the month of Av (which, in the Western calendar, generally falls around the end of July to beginning of August).

 

While it's true that "a qualitative change" (as expressed in the original posting) occurred in Judaism with the eventual disappearance of the Sadducees sect following the destruction of the Temple, the history and the Temple itself have never been forgotten. Jews have always marked the year of the Temple's destruction as a reference point for calculating dates. And, the tradition of the groom at the end of his wedding breaking a glass underfoot is meant to bring to mind the destruction of the Temple. That, even on the happiest of days -- one's wedding day -- we remember the saddest of days.

 

-- Nephele

 

Thanks Nephele, for re-orienting my thinking on this, and for the elegant background information on the Temple at Jerusalem.

 

It's almost as if at the moment of discovery of our "marker"the words, "Eureka, I've found it!" would be the most appropriate thing to say, and that it would be an unexpected discovery. By that measure, perhaps, my first posting on the pagan icons found in the compost pits of modern Britain fill(ed) that bill to some degree.

 

Valete -

[Melvadius]

Thanks Nephele, for re-orienting my thinking on this, and for the elegant background information on the Temple at Jerusalem.

 

It's almost as if at the moment of discovery of our "marker"the words, "Eureka, I've found it!" would be the most appropriate thing to say, and that it would be an unexpected discovery. By that measure, perhaps, my first posting on the pagan icons found in the compost pits of modern Britain fill(ed) that bill to some degree.

 

Valete -

 

As in all things archaeological it really depends upon your interpretation of why such objects were being found in middens AND which archaeologist you were talking to - some are a lot less inclined to see religous explanations for everything.

 

A few possible interpretations could include:

 

i) These objects have a lot of meaning to us still but we will be persecuted if we keep them in sight - let us hide them where no one will look for them.

 

ii) A variation to this is we are going to be attacked by the Anglo-Saxon's - let us hide what is valuable somewhere safe.

 

iii) **** I've broken mum's favourite statue/ mum-in-laws wedding gift - where can I hide it?

 

iv) **** I've dropped a coin into the cludgy - I'm not hunting for it.

 

v) what do you mean we will go to hell because we have some old coins kicking about the place? OK nobody will take them anyway get rid of the stupid things.

 

vi I know that now we are baptised we had to get rid of all our valuables to get inot heaven but did grandpa have to keep what he did with them secret?

 

vii) OK and I suppose that 'Fire and brimstone will be our just deserts if we do not get rid of everything with any connection to the old faith' fits in there somewhere too;).

 

Not to forget the all time favourite reason....

 

viii) The taxman commeth - hide everything of any value!

[Northern Neil]

The reign of Gratian should probably be seen as the marker - but that is just a personal opinion. He renounced the title 'Pontifex Maximus' and paved the way for the final elimination of classical paganism - and also the mood of philosophy and scientific enquiry which had hitherto existed for a thousand years in the classical world.

 

The Lupercalia was indeed celebrated for about a century and a half after this - much the same way I suppose that maypole dancing and halloween is still with us now. But I do not think that the sealing up of this cave and the abolition of its related festival was a significant marker any more than the ending of the Olympic Games in theodosius' time, the demolition of the Temple of Serapis a short time after, the lynching of Hypatia by christian monks or the banning af any number of pagan remnant activities from the Late Roman period through to modern times.

 

But, prior to the death of Valentinian, all these things were yet to happen.