Did Marius the Younger kill his commanding officer in the Social War?

[M. Porcius Cato]

I wonder what Lucius Julius Caesar's connection to Sulla was...

L Julius Caesar was in command of the Southern Theatre during the Social War. Sulla served directly under him.

And he was murdered by Pro Marians after Cinna and Marius took the city while Sulla was fighting Mithridates.

Appian Civ. War. 1.72

 

So, we might guess correctly that L Julius Caesar was no friend of the Marian faction. Maybe Sulla's animosity to the Marians was strengthened by their murder of Cato and Caesar?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip, analogous to that suetonian story of the purported electoral bribery of Cato Minor (Divus Iulius, Cp. XIX, sec. I).

 

You know; it may be true (????) but, who knows?

 

Maybe we should give more credit to the audacity of this L. P. Cato and/or the military talents of the Marsians.

Edited November 10, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[M. Porcius Cato]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip, analogous to that suetonian story of the purported electoral bribery of Cato Minor (Divus Iulius, Cp. XIX, sec. I).

 

Suetonius says nothing about Cato being bribed.

[Primus Pilus]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip...

 

You know; it may be true (????) but, who knows?

 

Indeed, that may be the case, but that in itself is rather interesting. What role did these rumors and/or allegations have on various alliances and loyalties?

[Primus Pilus]

So, we might guess correctly that L Julius Caesar was no friend of the Marian faction. Maybe Sulla's animosity to the Marians was strengthened by their murder of Cato and Caesar?

 

I don't even think we need to guess here. LJ Caesar was definately not a supporter of the Marians nor was his brother Caius. Did their murder (and Cato's) effect Sulla's animosity? In the case of Cato, this was before Marius tried to steal the command in the east away from Sulla, so it's impact was probably one of suspicion and distrust rather than open hostility. The Caesar's weren't murdered until after Sulla had already chased the Marians out of Rome before he went off to fight Mithridates. The murders by Marius and Cinna certainly seemed to have inspired a sense retribution in Sulla. It's interesting to think what may have happened if Marius and Cinna had not proscribed the pro Sullans.

[P.Clodius]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip, analogous to that suetonian story of the purported electoral bribery of Cato Minor (Divus Iulius, Cp. XIX, sec. I).

 

Suetonius says nothing about Cato being bribed.

That's right, we have previously established his angelic status here!. Cato was neither a bribee or a briber, cmon ASCLEPIADES, haven't you learned the art of cherry picking yet?

[Primus Pilus]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip, analogous to that suetonian story of the purported electoral bribery of Cato Minor (Divus Iulius, Cp. XIX, sec. I).

 

Suetonius says nothing about Cato being bribed.

That's right, we have previously established his angelic status here!. Cato was neither a bribee or a briber, cmon ASCLEPIADES, haven't you learned the art of cherry picking yet?

 

The bribes of M. P. Cato are not really relevant for this discussion, but I'll gladly split this off into it's own line should the tangent grow legs.

[M. Porcius Cato]

It's interesting to think what may have happened if Marius and Cinna had not proscribed the pro Sullans.

 

It would be interesting to compile a list of those killed by the Marians.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

 

By the way this episode is written ("It was thought by some that his death.../quasi ab incerto..."), I think we are dealing with some historic gossip, analogous to that suetonian story of the purported electoral bribery of Cato Minor (Divus Iulius, Cp. XIX, sec. I).

 

Suetonius says nothing about Cato being bribed.

The point is that I simply quoted an ambigous phrase of Suetonius:

 

"ac plerique pecunias contulerunt, ne Catone quidem abnuente eam largitionem e re publica fieri.

 

Many of them contributed to the fund, and even Cato did not deny that bribery under such circumstances was for the good of the commonwealth."

 

which seems to have been the main origin of some gratuitous speculation about Cato's honesty by some secondary sources (I think R. Syme was mentioned), as an example of historical (Suetonian) gossip.

 

I considered it analogous to the presumed responsibility of Marius Minor in the death of L. P. Cato discussed on this thread, probably another example of historical (Orosian) gossip.

Edited November 11, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

Indeed, that may be the case, but that in itself is rather interesting. What role did these rumors and/or allegations have on various alliances and loyalties?

Interesting indeed, but the quid is that we really don't know if these rumours and/or allegations were accepted indeed during the Social War or if they were developed ex post facto, as they were written by Orosius at the IV Century AD.

Edited November 11, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[G-Manicus]

which seems to have been the main origin of some gratuitous speculation about Cato's honesty by some secondary sources (I think R. Syme was mentioned), as an example of historical (Suetonian) gossip.

 

I considered it analogous to the presumed responsibility of Marius Minor in the death of L. P. Cato discussed on this thread, probably another example of historical (Orosian) gossip.

Which is why I asked if this was akin to "political bloodsport" of the times, whereby the political opposition would put out any number of scurrilous rumors about a candidate in order to sway public opinion / elections.

[Primus Pilus]

It's interesting to think what may have happened if Marius and Cinna had not proscribed the pro Sullans.

 

It would be interesting to compile a list of those killed by the Marians.

 

Unfortunately, the lists are rather disappointing in their detail. I put this together via Appian, Livy and Plutarch. Paterculus adds some confirmation, but nothing unique. Cassius Dio's account is, of course, horribly fragmented.

 

The great bulk of the deaths appear to be un-named victims as attested by some of the Plutarch and Appian quotes at the end of the list.

 

Killed during Social War

 

Q. Servilius Caepio Minor, Pr. 91, (killed in Asculum by Italians) App. 1.38, Liv. Epit. 72, Vell. Pat. 2.15

L. Postumus, Pr. 90 (killed at Nola by Samnites), Liv. Epit. 73

M. Claudius Marcellus, Aed. 91, Liv. Epit. 73

P. Rutilius Lupus, Cos. 90 (Marian), App. 1.43

Q. Servilius Caepio, Qua 100 (likely Marian), App. 1.44

L. Porcius Cato, Cos. 89, (Sullan) App 1.50

Asellio, Pr. 90?, (killed by money lenders) App. 1.54

 

Marians killed 88 BC (also proscribed)

 

P. Sulpicius Rufus, Tr. Pl. 88, App. 1.60, Liv. Epit. 77

Publius Cethegus, App. 1.60 (exiled)

Iunius Brutus, App. 1.60 (exiled)

Gnaeus Granius, App. 1.60 (exiled)

Quintus Granius, App. 1.60 (exiled)

Publius Albinovanus, App. 1.60 (exiled)

Marcus Laetorius, App. 1.60 (exiled)

 

Sullans Killed 88 - 87 BC

 

Q. Pompeius Rufus Minor, (son of the cos of same name for 88 BC and Sulla

[Nephele]

Unfortunately, the lists are rather disappointing in their detail. I put this together via Appian, Livy and Plutarch. Paterculus adds some confirmation, but nothing unique. Cassius Dio's account is, of course, horribly fragmented.

 

Great list, PP. (In addition to noting the effort that went into compiling this, I'm gleaning names from it for my personal interest in Roman names and families.) Will you be adding this list to the History section of the site?

 

-- Nephele

[Primus Pilus]

Great list, PP. (In addition to noting the effort that went into compiling this, I'm gleaning names from it for my personal interest in Roman names and families.) Will you be adding this list to the History section of the site?

 

-- Nephele

 

Possibly, but it needs to be hashed out a bit. This was really a first pass.

 

I'd also like to add the names of those killed in the Sertorian War, due to it's relationship to the Marian/Sullan conflict. I could also use your help via Broughton's on some of those names that aren't associated with an office. Of course, it would probably make sense to continue this through the Caesarian War and the second triumvirate. Perhaps I should go back to the age of the Gracchi and begin there?

[Nephele]

Great list, PP. (In addition to noting the effort that went into compiling this, I'm gleaning names from it for my personal interest in Roman names and families.) Will you be adding this list to the History section of the site?

 

-- Nephele

 

Possibly, but it needs to be hashed out a bit. This was really a first pass.

 

I'd also like to add the names of those killed in the Sertorian War, due to it's relationship to the Marian/Sullan conflict. I could also use your help via Broughton's on some of those names that aren't associated with an office. Of course, it would probably make sense to continue this through the Caesarian War and the second triumvirate. Perhaps I should go back to the age of the Gracchi and begin there?

 

Any Broughton's look-ups you need, just let me know. Always happy to oblige. And, yes, an expanded list encompassing other wars would be an excellent resource!

 

-- Nephele