G-Manicus Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Cato was not Caepio. Pssst! You're killing us here, Cato! Killing us! He merely traded a "t" for an "epi." Clearly a typo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 "L. Porcius Cato (7)... uncle of Cato of Utica,... was consul with Pompeius Strabo (89 bc)... He lost his life in an unlucky skirmish with the Marsians, near Lake Fucinus, at the end of a successful battle. It was thought by some that his death was not to be attributed to the enemy, but to the art of the younger Marius ; for Cato had boasted that his own achievements were equal to the Cimbrian victory of Marius the father. (Liv. Epit. Ixxv.; Oros. v. 17.)" Thanks ASC... I still have the problem translating Orosius, but do you by chance have a link to the exact text of Livy? I'm having a hell of a time locating it (and reconciling the Cato to Caepio issue). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Livy HERE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Livy HERE. And here comes P. Orosius (Historiarum Adversum Paganos, Liber V, Cp. XVIII, sec. XXIV) (In Latin, I'm afraid; BTW, I don't understand the Smith's reference previously quoted) "Porcius Cato consul Marianas copias habens cum aliquanta strenue gessisset, gloriatus est, C. Marium non maiora fecisse, et ob hoc, cum ad lacum Fucinum contra Marsos bellum gereret, a filio C. Marii in tumultu belli quasi ab incerto auctore prostratus est." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I guess the involvement of Marius' son in the death of L. Porcius Cato belongs in the section on the Social War (if it's important enough to include at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 (if it's important enough to include at all). And I guess the answer to that would be if the death of L. Porcius Cato is deemed to have had any significant impact on the war or not, which I don't believe it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 (if it's important enough to include at all). And I guess the answer to that would be if the death of L. Porcius Cato is deemed to have had any significant impact on the war or not, which I don't believe it did. Impossible to know, but I'll bet it hardened attitudes against the Marian faction. Some of the friends of the Porcii Catones, like Sulla, weren't the kind of people you wanted to tick off. Thus, the historically important issue may not be the influence of Cato's murder on the Social War but its influence on the coming civil war with Marius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 (if it's important enough to include at all). And I guess the answer to that would be if the death of L. Porcius Cato is deemed to have had any significant impact on the war or not, which I don't believe it did. Impossible to know, but I'll bet it hardened attitudes against the Marian faction. Some of the friends of the Porcii Catones, like Sulla, weren't the kind of people you wanted to tick off. Thus, the historically important issue may not be the influence of Cato's murder on the Social War but its influence on the coming civil war with Marius. Considering that only one source makes a mention of it in any capacity at all, while both Plutarch and Appian ignore it completely, I feel fairly comfortable leaving it out of my narrative. MPC may be right in his assessment that the "murder" or accusation thereof may have influenced the civil war with Marius, but this also does not prove that Marius Minor actually did anything. The episode is a rather fascinating yet mostly obscure historical tidbit. Of course the accusation is further proof of factional complications and perhaps familial allegiances, but this in itself is not as decisive as the overall Marius/Sulla conflict as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Impossible to know, but I'll bet it hardened attitudes against the Marian faction. Some of the friends of the Porcii Catones, like Sulla, weren't the kind of people you wanted to tick off. Thus, the historically important issue may not be the influence of Cato's murder on the Social War but its influence on the coming civil war with Marius. Good point, MPC. Historically, what was the perception of young Marius at the time? The McCullough book paints him as brash, arrogant, and thoroughly disliked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Considering that only one source makes a mention of it in any capacity at all, while both Plutarch and Appian ignore it completely, I feel fairly comfortable leaving it out of my narrative. MPC may be right in his assessment that the "murder" or accusation thereof may have influenced the civil war with Marius, but this also does not prove that Marius Minor actually did anything. The episode is a rather fascinating yet mostly obscure historical tidbit. Of course the accusation is further proof of factional complications and perhaps familial allegiances, but this in itself is not as decisive as the overall Marius/Sulla conflict as a whole. I suppose that's a fair (if conservative) reading. Regarding familial allegiances, I'd point out that Sulla at this point would have been good friends with Lucius' brother, Marcus Porcius Cato. I wonder what Lucius Julius Caesar's connection to Sulla was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I wonder what Lucius Julius Caesar's connection to Sulla was... L Julius Caesar was in command of the Southern Theatre during the Social War. Sulla served directly under him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Regarding familial allegiances, I'd point out that Sulla at this point would have been good friends with Lucius' brother, Marcus Porcius Cato. Wait .. which Cato are we talking about here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) Regarding familial allegiances, I'd point out that Sulla at this point would have been good friends with Lucius' brother, Marcus Porcius Cato. Wait .. which Cato are we talking about here? The father of Cato the Younger and grandson of Cato the Elder. See below: Edited November 9, 2007 by M. Porcius Cato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I wonder what Lucius Julius Caesar's connection to Sulla was... L Julius Caesar was in command of the Southern Theatre during the Social War. Sulla served directly under him. And he was murdered by Pro Marians after Cinna and Marius took the city while Sulla was fighting Mithridates. Appian Civ. War. 1.72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 The father of Cato the Younger and grandson of Cato the Elder. Not to mention brother in law to Marcus Drusus by virtue of having married the divorced wife of Sulla supporter Caepio. *head explodes* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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