Did Marius the Younger kill his commanding officer in the Social War?

[G-Manicus]

(Note: Thread title changed to better reflect the topic at hand - G)

 

In reading the UNRV article on the Social Wars I noted the following regarding Caepio the Younger:

 

As an obvious slight against Marius, another political opponent, Caepio, was placed in command of the north, but he was soon killed in battle. At first accusations were thrown at Marius' son for murdering Caepio during the battle which ended Caepio's life, but it was more a sign of the politics of the time and charges were eventually dropped.

 

Wikipedia however indicates the following:

 

Caepio was made a Legate in the Roman Army, he was captured and executed by the Italians after being tricked into leaving a secure position.

 

Can somebody please clarify this for me? Were the accusations about Marius the younger just a political bloodsport of the times? Or is there some basis in truth for this?

Edited November 9, 2007 by G-Manicus

[Ingsoc]

"The Senate appointed C. Marius and Q. Caepio to command the forces of Rutilius in the field. The opposing general, Q. Popaedius, fled as a pretended deserter to this Caepio. He brought with him and gave as a pledge two slave babies, clad with the purple-bordered garments of free-born children, pretending that they were his own sons. As further confirmation of his good faith he brought masses of lead plated with gold and silver. He urged Caepio to follow him in all haste with his army and capture the hostile army while destitute of a leader, and Caepio was deceived and followed him. When they had arrived at a place where the ambush had been laid, Popaedius ran up to the top of a hill though he were searching for the enemy, and gave his own men a signal. The latter sprang out of their concealment and cut Caepio and most of his force in pieces; so the Senate joined the rest of Caepio's army to that of Marius. " (Appian, BC, 1.44)

[G-Manicus]

"The Senate appointed C. Marius and Q. Caepio to command the forces of Rutilius in the field. The opposing general, Q. Popaedius, fled as a pretended deserter to this Caepio. He brought with him and gave as a pledge two slave babies, clad with the purple-bordered garments of free-born children, pretending that they were his own sons. As further confirmation of his good faith he brought masses of lead plated with gold and silver. He urged Caepio to follow him in all haste with his army and capture the hostile army while destitute of a leader, and Caepio was deceived and followed him. When they had arrived at a place where the ambush had been laid, Popaedius ran up to the top of a hill though he were searching for the enemy, and gave his own men a signal. The latter sprang out of their concealment and cut Caepio and most of his force in pieces; so the Senate joined the rest of Caepio's army to that of Marius. " (Appian, BC, 1.44)

 

Thanks, Ingsoc.

 

I wonder where this bit about Marius' son come from then?

[Primus Pilus]

In reading the UNRV article on the Social Wars I noted the following regarding Caepio the Younger:

 

As an obvious slight against Marius, another political opponent, Caepio, was placed in command of the north, but he was soon killed in battle. At first accusations were thrown at Marius' son for murdering Caepio during the battle which ended Caepio's life, but it was more a sign of the politics of the time and charges were eventually dropped.

 

Wikipedia however indicates the following:

 

Caepio was made a Legate in the Roman Army, he was captured and executed by the Italians after being tricked into leaving a secure position.

 

Can somebody please clarify this for me? Were the accusations about Marius the younger just a political bloodsport of the times? Or is there some basis in truth for this?

 

The two aren't really contradictory. My contention is that Marius Minor was accused of being involved because of political enmity between factions, but I am not disputing the nature of Caepio's death.

 

In any case, despite scrounging around here frantically, I am unable to pinpoint my own source for the contention that Marius Minor was accused of anything. Quite embarrassing really, but there must be something, somewhere. Regardless, because of the speculative nature of the passage anyway, I think it appropriate to edit that piece of information out.

 

My apologies for confusing you, but thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[G-Manicus]

My apologies for confusing you,

Don't flatter yourself ... it ain't that hard.

 

Primus ... if you come across the original source I'd be interested in hearing more about it. It certainly sounds like something that anti-Marian types back in Rome at the time would have reflexively spit out in response to Caepio's death. Do we know if Marius the younger was indeed part of Caepio's forces at this point in the Social Wars?

[Primus Pilus]

My apologies for confusing you,

Don't flatter yourself ... it ain't that hard.

 

Primus ... if you come across the original source I'd be interested in hearing more about it. It certainly sounds like something that anti-Marian types back in Rome at the time would have reflexively spit out in response to Caepio's death. Do we know if Marius the younger was indeed part of Caepio's forces at this point in the Social Wars?

 

Frankly, it's been driving me crazy for the past couple of hours. I have nothing in my notes and can't find anything in the usual sources. I suppose there may be something in Cicero, but his work is definately more time consuming to search for such details than other traditional narratives/bios (Appian, Plutarch, etc.). I think it best to rework my original passage at this point, and restore it should I find anything definitive.

[G-Manicus]

Hmmmm ... googled this:

 

Other events did not go as well for Rome as Lucius Porcius Cato was killed by Italic forces, as was his advising general Quintus Servilius Caepio the Younger. This prompted a major political scandal, as Caepio had been an opponent of Marius, and his son Caius Marius the Younger had been the second advising general ... Back north Marius the Younger was cleared of all charges and the war continued.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Frankly, it's been driving me crazy for the past couple of hours. I have nothing in my notes and can't find anything in the usual sources. I suppose there may be something in Cicero, but his work is definately more time consuming to search for such details than other traditional narratives/bios (Appian, Plutarch, etc.). I think it best to rework my original passage at this point, and restore it should I find anything definitive.

 

Check out Orosius Book 5. Also, this thread belongs in the Res Publica sub-fora.

[G-Manicus]

Check out Orosius Book 5. Also, this thread belongs in the Res Publica sub-fora.

That's all Greek to me.

[Primus Pilus]

No, that doesn't appear to be it either. If I'm reading it correctly, the suggestion is that Caepio got himself into a position to be destroyed at the urging of Marius (which isn't much different than other accounts). However, I'm still not seeing an accusation against Marius Minor. I'm completely baffled. I suppose I should just write this one off as an honest mistake, but it's quite frustrating.

 

Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm missing something in the translation.

[G-Manicus]

I'm reading "The Grass Crown" by Colleen McCullough and in it she presents a story arc involving Gaius Marius the younger murdering his superior officer (and then Roman Consul), Lucius Porcius Cato, in order to save their army from defeat at the hands of the Marsi at the Battle of Fucine Lake. He's brought up on charges in the field by the new commanding officer, Cinna, and his father comes to his aid. A convenient fatal "accident" to the only eyewitness causes the charges to be dropped.

 

I know it's historical fiction, but does this help to jog anyone's memory on the matter?

[Primus Pilus]

I'm reading "The Grass Crown" by Colleen McCullough and in it she presents a story arc involving Gaius Marius the younger murdering his superior officer (and then Roman Consul), Lucius Porcius Cato, in order to save their army from defeat at the hands of the Marsi at the Battle of Fucine Lake. He's brought up on charges in the field by the new commanding officer, Cinna, and his father comes to his aid. A convenient fatal "accident" to the only eyewitness causes the charges to be dropped.

 

I know it's historical fiction, but does this help to jog anyone's memory on the matter?

 

I know McCullough has an extensive bibliography and was quite meticulous, but as expected in a novel, she doesn't provide extensive support of every piece of conjecture.

 

I vaguely remember reading something about this incident in a work by Christopher Mackay. I think it was this. However, I can't find it now, so I'll simply accept responsibility for the unverified claim and move along.

[ASCLEPIADES]

I'm reading "The Grass Crown" by Colleen McCullough and in it she presents a story arc involving Gaius Marius the younger murdering his superior officer (and then Roman Consul), Lucius Porcius Cato, in order to save their army from defeat at the hands of the Marsi at the Battle of Fucine Lake. He's brought up on charges in the field by the new commanding officer, Cinna, and his father comes to his aid. A convenient fatal "accident" to the only eyewitness causes the charges to be dropped.

 

I know it's historical fiction, but does this help to jog anyone's memory on the matter?

 

I know McCullough has an extensive bibliography and was quite meticulous, but as expected in a novel, she doesn't provide extensive support of every piece of conjecture.

 

I vaguely remember reading something about this incident in a work by Christopher Mackay. I think it was this. However, I can't find it now, so I'll simply accept responsibility for the unverified claim and move along.

Salve, Amici.

Here comes Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology:

 

"L. Porcius Cato (7)... uncle of Cato of Utica,... was consul with Pompeius Strabo (89 bc)... He lost his life in an unlucky skirmish with the Marsians, near Lake Fucinus, at the end of a successful battle. It was thought by some that his death was not to be attributed to the enemy, but to the art of the younger Marius ; for Cato had boasted that his own achievements were equal to the Cimbrian victory of Marius the father. (Liv. Epit. Ixxv.; Oros. v. 17.)"

[G-Manicus]

Salve, Amici.

Here comes Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology:

 

"L. Porcius Cato (7)... uncle of Cato of Utica,... was consul with Pompeius Strabo (89 bc)... He lost his life in an unlucky skirmish with the Marsians, near Lake Fucinus, at the end of a successful battle. It was thought by some that his death was not to be attributed to the enemy, but to the art of the younger Marius ; for Cato had boasted that his own achievements were equal to the Cimbrian victory of Marius the father. (Liv. Epit. Ixxv.; Oros. v. 17.)"

 

The A Train comes through!

 

The good reputation of Primus Pilus has been restored! Let the word go forth from this day and time!

[M. Porcius Cato]

Cato was not Caepio.