Regional accents

[The Augusta]

Inspired by this thread by Viggen and going off on one of my usual tangents - I wanted to raise a discussion about regional accents. Not just in the UK but worldwide. This is clearly one for the Doc, so I wonder if she could shed light on just how regional accents (which I find so fascinating) have come about through the centuries. For instance, in the UK, one can hear a mixture of - say - Welsh, Irish and Mancunian in the horrendous Scouse (Liverpudlian ), or some traces of Scots and Norse in the gorgeous Geordie accent of the North East etc. What then of Cockney? What elements of the settlers in our history have gone to make up this accent?

 

Indeed, our American cousins themselves? Over here in the UK, we say 'suchabody has an American accent' but there is more than one type of accent in the vast territory that makes up the USA. Why is the New York accent so distinct from - say - the Californian? And even I as a Brit can hear the enormous differences here. We know that Irish, Italian etc have had their part to play in modern New York accents, but just what has gone into the various regional accents of the USA? Of different parts of Germany? Of the UK?

 

This is always a topic that I have loved and yet I haven't found time to study. Can Doc or one of our other esteemed linguists give us any insights into the genesis and development of regional accents? And pointers towards further study would be appreciated.

[P.Clodius]

This is a great documentary which offers many insights into this very subject. Try to get a copy if you can.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

An excellent thread Augusta, it's something I've often wondered about myself.

 

In Yorkshire alone there's quite a few different accents, I'm from Leeeds and obviously we speak the best English , but I can spot a Sheffield or a Barnsley accent straight away even though they only 30 miles down the road.

 

I'll look forward to hearing some interesting explanations......I hope!

[The Augusta]

An excellent thread Augusta, it's something I've often wondered about myself.

 

In Yorkshire alone there's quite a few different accents, I'm from Leeeds and obviously we speak the best English , but I can spot a Sheffield or a Barnsley accent straight away even though they only 30 miles down the road.

 

I'll look forward to hearing some interesting explanations......I hope!

 

A good point, GPM. I was born and bred only 8 miles from Manchester but as a child growing up I always realised that my Dad 'talked funny' - i.e. not like Mum, me and my maternal relatives. Dad was from Manchester. So even the tiny difference of 8 miles can deliver a totally different accent, perhaps not discernible to a person from the south of England, or abroad, but to locals - well, the Manc accent is as aurally far removed from my own as it is from Irish.

 

Therefore, the question is not only how regional accents evolved, but local ones too. I guess we'll wait for Doc to check in, as I'm sure she'll be able to offer her usual erudite take on matters.

[Gaius Octavius]

I think that 'accents' develop because of the lack of movement of populations. Until WWII, most Americans never traveled farther than five miles from their birth place. When people wanted to hear Elizabethan English spoken, they went to Appalachia in the U.S., because that population was isolated from its start. This isolation compounded the accents or drawls. As mobility has increased, the accents have tended to disappear or become a part of the whole. The Kali4kneeyaisms: 'Like' and 'you know', have become a part of the whole. With education, the Brooklynese 'toity toid' for '33rd', and 'erl' for oil have mostly disappeared. (This, of course, does not apply to the present occupant of the White House. The heavier his phony drawl, the more he is lying.)

 

Yet, here in America, the Brooklyn accent is universally understood; whereas someone from crowsfeets, texass, can't be understood. Pantagathus will most certainly attest to this.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[docoflove1974]

Well, Don Tomato's got it started right: isolation of one kind or another is a key.

 

Think of it this way: People in Community C grow up together for 4 generations; same groups, same customs, same area, same everything. Then Family A decides that they want to move from there to another location, and so they do; they bring Families B and M with them. So A, B and M go off and create their own community (P), which is located across the river from Community C. True enough, Communities C and P do trade together, but essentially they live their own lives. Come back in about another 4 generations, and there are already different patterns of speech emerging...if you only talk within your own group, you create your own manners of expressing and communicating thoughts and ideas, and while your community might be related (literally, culturally, etc.) to another, your languages might be similar, but you have your own way of doing things.

[docoflove1974]

...part 2...

 

Anything can create isolation. Often it's geographical: mountains rivers, and larger, of course. But it can also be social isolation: think Medieval Europe, with the walled cities and severe isolationist mentalities. Anything that creates a community as a cohesive unit, and at the same time keeps it away from other communities for some time with minimal interaction with similar-linguistic communities, that's going to be the fertile ground for the formation of another dialect. Sometimes it's simply a matter of changing the phonological inventory slightly and a few key phrases--think the various English dialects noted in this thread, let another what most people would consider an 'accent'. But if this constant isolation is allowed to continue and thrive, it will develop into another language...see Viggen's thread on Afrikaans noted earlier.

 

Here's a great example: my maternal side is Italian, and my grandmother's parents are from about 20 km NNW of Milan. They were from different towns: GGF Battista Tapela was from Magnano, and GGM Anunciata Dianni was from Ferno. Battista moved to Ferno--a whole 2km away--to marry Anunciata...and they maintained (and taught their daughters, my grandmother and great-aunt) that they spoke different dialects. In all honesty, 100 years ago, there probably were slight differences--just like the Augusta mentioned with her dad.

 

What cancels this out? Centrality: standardized education, central media (newspaper, radio, tv, etc.). Essentially, the more communication between communities (sociolinguists often use the term 'networks', and I tend to, as well), the more barriers are weakened, and the fewer dialects will hold.

[Lost_Warrior]

I have a friend over in Scotland who is convinced I'm actually Texan (I've never set foot anywhere NEAR Texas and have never lived outside of PA)

[Gaius Octavius]

I have a friend over in Scotland who is convinced I'm actually Texan (I've never set foot anywhere NEAR Texas and have never lived outside of PA)

 

I think that you are a Martian! Hope that that harp of yours is still plinging away.

 

[Nephele]

Excellent thread, indeed! I was waiting for DoL's take on this, and I agree with her statement that what "cancels out" accents bred of locality (as mentioned by GO) tends to be standardized education and central media. Plus, I believe, association with those who speak a certain way also, over time, can eventually cancel out one's home-bred accent.

 

My man was born and bred in Nottingham. But instead of having the same accent shared by his family, he has more of a "BBC accent" -- due to years of mesmerized television viewing which led to him eventually becoming a writer first of television "tie-in's" and later of books in other genres.

 

As for me, I grew up being told I have a "typical New York Jewish accent." But years of association with my British-born man have tempered my accent to the occasional British lilt. And, every time I come back to New York after a stay in England, people tend to remark that I sound "British."

 

But I think that regional accents will become less and less defined, with each new generation. Even now, the "Brooklyn accent" so often spotlighted in old black'n'white gangster movies and screwball comedies, is fading away into obscurity. (As GO also noted in this thread.) I honestly don't remember ever encountering a Brooklynite who actually said "deese" and "dose." Or even: "Go back ta Joisey, ya bum!" (a phrase I taught my man's brother to holler from the car while driving in the city, last time he came to New York for a visit. It was hilarious, hearing him holler that in his clipped, British accent.)

 

-- Nephele

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

 

The following link goes to theThe Speech Accent Archive: 815 audio samples of people with various accents reading the same paragraph.

 

(In English and also in another Languages, of course)

 

I hope this stuff may be useful.

 

Vale.

Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[The Augusta]

Excellent thread, indeed! I was waiting for DoL's take on this, and I agree with her statement that what "cancels out" accents bred of locality (as mentioned by GO) tends to be standardized education and central media. Plus, I believe, association with those who speak a certain way also, over time, can eventually cancel out one's home-bred accent.

 

But I think that regional accents will become less and less defined, with each new generation.

-- Nephele

 

Some wonderful answers in the above posts - but this caught my eye, Nephele. It is certainly true that the very strong Lancashire dialect that was spoken by my maternal grandfather (the 'Ee by gum' and 'Stop pickin' tha nose, lad!' - or the glorious 'A' tha nobbut a tanner in thi pocket?') have certainly died out for several reasons - not least being better education for all and, as you point out, a central media. My grandfather died before television reached his little town - but he was a contemporary of my Manchester grandfather, of course, who never used a dialectic word in his life - he just spoke with a Gorton (area of central Manchester) accent, as did my father. I never once heard my Dad use any dialect and he couldn't understand the thick accents of more rural Lancashire. I would also agree that with today's opportunity for easier travel between localities and communication with others of different localities will all have its bearing on wearing away a local or regional accent.

 

I am not sure, however, if regional accents are actually showing true signs of decay just yet - or at least not among the working classes (if such a term can be used today). In the North of England in particular they still thrive, and it is often possible to hear the odd Yorkshire vowel in a very 'posh' actor's voice or other traces of origin in those who think they have lost their accents. So, although I can accept that those who move about may lose their accents, I tend to go with what Doc said about the isolation thing. If families remain in their locality for life, its a pretty safe bet that they will retain their accent, I think - unless they deliberately seek to remove it by elocution or some other means.

 

But if we can now return to the actual beginning - does anyone have anything to offer as to WHY regions evolved with different accents in the first place? Is this because certain tribes settled in certain localities, bringing their own nuances of whatever ancient tongue they spoke? What has made a Cockney sound so different to a Scouse? Does this go back to the very start of ancient Briton? I can more or less put a picture together of the Viking invasion leaving its mark on the accents of the North, but what is the provenance of southern accents? Is this Norman influence? Latin etc? Hehe - as for our Queen's very, very clipped English - one can actually hear the German of the Hanoverians in her voice. Royalty have had this influence for two hundred years, which is why the phrase 'The Queen's English' makes me giggle.

[Viggen]

As for me, I grew up being told I have a "typical New York Jewish accent."

 

...for a non english speaker, would that sound something like Seinfeld? (oops, i mean Elaine )

 

I (german native speaker) lived six years in south africa and when i talk english to a british/american they often think i am from south africa (because an afrikaaner speaking english sounds about like me )

 

...going back to the south african example, i did find the english south african (not talking about the "afrikaaner" but the born and raised english south africans), have about the most beautiful accent to listen to and more important i understand even when they speak fast and with themselves, cant say that from any other english accent other maybe the english you hear from the queen and the likes (probably because they cant speak fast )

 

...going full circle back to austria/germany, here it is mainly a geographic thing, (basically each valley has its own dialect here) but then of course we had the Habsburg Empire and lots of influence from the south eastern parts of europe, the rest of germany never had, so we austrians developed a broader high austrian dialect on top of the regional dialect that every austrian would understand but someone from germany wouldn have difficulties to do. Exept the most western part of austria which has the allemanic brach of german and that just sound completely different (similar to swiss)

 

btw. sometimes its just a commerical thing (well geographic too), for example the orange, in souther germany and austria we call it simply "Orange" because they were delivered from the mediteranean (france) were it is called pomme d`orange, in the nothern parts they got the fruit via the Dutch Harbours were they called it appelsien (apple from china) and germanized it to Apfelsine...

[Gaius Octavius]

I don't know if this will go to the 'WHY' as much as it will go to the 'HOW'. Take the thread about you, and Domina Nomina's reply: Manchester Maven. The word 'maven' has become a part of English as it is spoken in N.Y. City. Most everyone knows that it expresses much more than any simple English word. So why bother with a complex English term. The same for 'Rabbi', a person who helps one in his career. 'Schlemiel', an easy mark or a 'know-it-all' who knows nothing. These terms are used by the large Jewish population in NYC and the rest can't help but pick them up. They make good, easy sense (to us). I know that I am a 'goy', but I am not quite sure what that means. Probably an insult.

 

My spell checker picked up my erroneous spelling of 'schlemeel'; passed on 'maven', but not 'goy'. Don't know if these are in the O.E.D.

 

The same with the Neapolitan 'schaff'(?), to jam into.

 

I am sure that the above is no more than an iota of a proper answer to your question.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[P.Clodius]

HAHAHA..this thread brings back memories. Where I'm from we had what I used to generalize as a yorkshire accent, but you could go 2-3 miles down the road and they'd have more Townie accents (Manchester). Wi wer reet brohhd wi wer...Now my accent is a melange. People from the US think I'm British, people from Britain think I'm a yank!