The vote on Turkey

[ASCLEPIADES]

The second one is for how long can you hold accountable for such a crime a whole nation, or at least its government; we are talking here about some ninety years for the case of the Armenian genocide. This is the really hard question.

 

How long can you hold a nation responsible? The Germans have been held responsible for the Holocaust for over 60 years. They still pay reperations, and yet the NSDAP hasn't held power since 1945. All of it's upper hierarchy are dead. All I'm saying is that the hypocrisy needs to stop.

On that example, I think you are holding responsible mainly the individuals (the perpetrators were alive when judged and some of them still are), even if the nation had to dhare the responsability, due to the magnitude of such acts.

The Armenian genocide and related events happened circa ninety years ago; it would be very difficult to find perpetrators still alive. Should their descendants be hold accountable for such act? If so, for how long, and for how many generations.

 

As NR rightly states, almost all countries have some skeletons in their closets.

 

And a final curious quotation from en. wikipedia:

 

"In February of 1985, Ugo Vetere, the mayor of Rome, and Chedly Klibi, the mayor of Carthage, signed a symbolic treaty "officially" ending the war (III Punic War) which had been supposedly extended by the lack of a peace treaty for more than 2100 years."

[Faustus]

It seems that US politicians have decided to stir new problems in the quiet Middle East. The vote on the armenian genocide it's pointless and useless, but extremists are sure to profit from it.

 

Agreed. As it seems that both the Turks and the Armenians are less than pleased with Washington's vote, it's hard to see what good it's supposed to do.

 

Let's call it what it is: A Resolution of the U.S. House of Representatives. Why would they step in it like this right now? It accomplishes nothing at all except grandstanding, and is only a symbolic vote. Let's call a spade a spade; nice hand they are playing. . .It's fairly easy to see what it will produce. Even the politicians in Turkey see it for what it is, but they can not ignore it. It's too hot politically. Nice timing U.S. House.

[Kosmo]

Support for the resolution it's droping in The House, but turkish Parliament allowed military operations. The difference beetwen a symbolic act and a real one.

 

PS. The edile of Rome can not sign a peace treaty. He should by flogged and send in exile to Kurdistan.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Stupid House of Representatives. Turkey just started shelling Kurdistan along the border already. And now the Cabinet is getting the go-ahead, ahh a huge mess caused by the HoR. All the Turks needed was a stupid reason to mobilize.

 

Now I'm just wondering if the US military will beat up of the Turkish military if there is an invasion.

Edited October 17, 2007 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[ASCLEPIADES]

Support for the resolution it's droping in The House, but turkish Parliament allowed military operations. The difference beetwen a symbolic act and a real one.

 

PS. The edile of Rome can not sign a peace treaty. He should by flogged and send in exile to Kurdistan.

Salve, Amici.

 

I have to admit that so far, after a thorough search, I haven't been able to find or figure any rational basis for the House decision.

[Gaius Octavius]

Stupid House of Representatives. Turkey just started shelling Kurdistan along the border already. And now the Cabinet is getting the go-ahead, ahh a huge mess caused by the HoR. All the Turks needed was a stupid reason to mobilize.

 

Now I'm just wondering if the US military will beat up of the Turkish military if there is an invasion.

 

Not unless we get troopers from Andorra, Lichtenstein and San Marino.

[Praebitorae]

Wheader we like Turkey or not doesn't realy matter, the West NEEDS them.

What do most want and hope to ashieve with motions like those adopted by Congres?

They simply want Turkey to CONFESS TO the fact and ACKNOWLEDGE that they commited grave attroceties against the Armenian people.

The killing ore just having about 700.000 "starved" can't be called ore waved away with the argument "'t was war ,we made mistakes.."

Nor should WE forget that it DID happen, it happend as good as the willfull sloughter of the American Indians ,the fact that it is "a old hat" doesn't free the Turkish people of a moral guild against the Armenians and the ofspring of the victims especialy.

 

Turkey should simply "come clean" and aknowldege what has happend and acsept the consequences of that , it's THAT what the western world asks of them.

None beeing right in his mind would blame pressent day Turks for what happend in those day's for those who took it upon them to do it are already dead for a long time.

Facing youre history isn't easy and often painfull as well but it's a introget part of growing up as nation and people and...unavoidable anyhowe.

[Kosmo]

First of all, it's a bad decision for what it's happening today, not what happened some time ago.

Second, this pointing of fingers it's just dumb and no one invested the West or the US with the moral authority to do it. In the light of recent US actions this looks for many just ipocrite. Especially when this decision was taken by politicians seeking the vote of Armenian-Americans and not on a moral ground.

Third, this happened during ottoman rule and Turkey kemalist regime did not consider himself a continuation of that regime, but one of the succesors. The differences between the two are many and if you go to Turkey you will see statues of Ataturk, not of the House of Osman.

 

 

And after all a person can be asked to "come clean" for his own actions and not for others and for sure not for ancestors. I'm a romanian, but I don't have to accept blame for what various romanian govermant did thru out the time to other people, mostly romanians. Comunists imprisoned some 5% of our population and killed some 3%. Can you tell me that I'm responsible for that? It's a difference if the vicitims are romanian citizens of romanian origins or romanian citizens of armenian origins? Responsability must always be connected with an individual, especially when the decision was undemocratic. It's a basic principle of penal law and for sure, to prosecute the mass murderers of today will be more effective than to throw a collective blame on innocents. This PC guilt thing resambles the communist principle (but used also by jacobines/nazists/terorists/etc ) of "objective enemy" that is a person that regardless of his actions it's guilty for his origins. If you are a "turk" you are responsable for what some long time dead "turks" did to some "armenians" ( The quotes are used because ethnicity it's strange thing)

[ASCLEPIADES]

Support for the resolution it's droping in The House, but turkish Parliament allowed military operations. The difference beetwen a symbolic act and a real one.

 

PS. The edile of Rome can not sign a peace treaty. He should by flogged and send in exile to Kurdistan.

Salve, Amici.

 

I have to admit that so far, after a thorough search, I haven't been able to find or figure any rational basis for the House decision.

Now I think maybe the House

[Kosmo]

For sure things go down fast.

 

"Iraq and Turkey see tensions rise after ambush

ISTANBUL: A brazen ambush by Kurdish militants that left at least 12 Turkish soldiers dead touched off a major escalation in Turkey-Iraq tensions on Sunday, bringing fears that Turkey would retaliate immediately by sending troops across the border into Iraq. But Turkey's prime minister said he delayed a decision, after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice personally intervened.

 

The ambush by a large group of Kurdish militants about three miles from the border with Iraq early on Sunday was seen as a direct provocation on the part of the militants, who have increasingly staged raids into Turkey from hide-outs in the mountains of northern Iraq.

 

It was the most serious attack in recent memory by the militants, separatist fighters of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, and came only four days after Turkey's Parliament formally approved contingency plans for military retaliation across the border..."

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/22/eur...rkey.php?page=1

 

Note the picture at the rally in Istanbul and the words of the kurdish president of Iraq "Handing over PKK leaders to Turkey is a dream that will never be realized" and "We will not hand any Kurdish man to Turkey, even a Kurdish cat."

 

Guns will speak soon.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Kosmo

[Ludovicus]

It seems that US politicians have decided to stir new problems in the quiet Middle East. The vote on the armenian genocide it's pointless and useless, but extremists are sure to profit from it.

If Turkey cuts supply lines and atacks kurds in Iraq things don't look good for the US coalition there and any turk that wants a future as a politician it's forced to do it.

 

 

What US "coalition" ? 90 percent of the troops in Iraq are US. The use of the word "coalition" by the White House is disingenuous, to say the least.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Ludovicus

[Rameses the Great]

Stupid House of Representatives. Turkey just started shelling Kurdistan along the border already. And now the Cabinet is getting the go-ahead, ahh a huge mess caused by the HoR. All the Turks needed was a stupid reason to mobilize.

 

Now I'm just wondering if the US military will beat up of the Turkish military if there is an invasion.

 

FVC, Kurds were literally going into the Southeastern portions of Turkey and killed civilians running back into Iraq. So why is America's situation in Iraq any different? A case of the pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

 

And oh yeah, the Turkish military is nothing to sneeze at.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Rameses the Great

[Kosmo]

The snow has melted in the mountains so 10.000 turkish turists are visting Northern Iraq

 

"Gates urges quick end to Turks' military operation in Iraq

 

BAGHDAD: Defense Secretary Robert Gates urged the Turkish military on Wednesday to abandon by mid-March their invasion of guerrilla-controlled lands in the northernmost reaches of Iraq.

 

But Turkish officials said the government had no intention of ending military operations in Iraq before all its targets had been destroyed.

 

Gates's call for an end to the offensive came amid signs that the American and Iraqi governments were growing increasingly worried that fierce fighting along the mountainous Turkey-Iraq border could widen into a much broader and bloodier conflict..."

 

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/27/mideast/turkey.php