Kosmo Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 It seems that US politicians have decided to stir new problems in the quiet Middle East. The vote on the armenian genocide it's pointless and useless, but extremists are sure to profit from it. If Turkey cuts supply lines and atacks kurds in Iraq things don't look good for the US coalition there and any turk that wants a future as a politician it's forced to do it. This time it cannot be blamed on Bush. What next? The house will call a genocide what Rome did when destructed Carthage and blame the "russian" genocide on mongols? "Turkey angry over House Armenian genocide vote Turkey reacted angrily Thursday to a House committee vote in Washington on Wednesday to condemn the mass killings of Armenians in Turkey in World War I as an act of genocide, calling the decision "unacceptable." In a rare and uncharacteristically strong condemnation, President Abdullah Gul criticized the vote by the House Foreign Relations Committee in a statement to the semi-official Anatolian News Agency, and warned that the decision could work against the United States. "Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States have once more dismissed calls for common sense, and made an attempt to sacrifice big issues for minor domestic political games," Gul said. "This is not a type of attitude that works to the benefit of, and suits, representatives of a great power like the Unites States of America. This unacceptable decision of the committee, like similar ones in the past, has no validity and is not worth of the respect of the Turkish people." http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/eur...rkey.php?page=1 IHT it's a great news source, but this time it was late to pick on the problem. Turkey it's on a war footing since the kurdish bombing and this comittee decision will not help. The Committee for the Destruction of Foreign Relations it's more adequate. Are they historians and judges now? Amazing shooting oneself in the foot like that! And I thought only romanian politicians are dumb... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 The French wish to call "shenanigans" on Italy over that whole Alesia thing too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.Clodius Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 The French wish to call "shenanigans" on Italy over that whole Alesia thing too. Are you $h1ting me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Manicus Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Are you $h1ting me? Why, yes. Yes, I am. You would expect otherwise from me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necromaniac Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 The French wish to call "shenanigans" on Italy over that whole Alesia thing too. i literally almost fell out of my chair when i read that, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Ratus Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Seriously though, should the Turkish genocide of the Armenians and Ionic Greeks be totally overlooked? Genocide is genocide. Just because the Turks want to play European now dosen't mean they should get off for free. If we are going to cherry pick which slayings are genocides, let's let Hitler off the hook, both Stalin and Mao killed more. Otheriwse, lets hold the Turks accountable. They should be forced to give back Ionia and Constantinople to the Greeks, The rest of Armenia to the Armenians,and let's finally create a Kurdish state. Hell, they are the only group in Iraq who want to create a stable nation. If we are not going to let these people be free, next time an Arab or Iranian calls for Israel's destruction, don't make me hear the complaints. Edited October 12, 2007 by Julius Ratus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) I think there are many different arguments at stake here. The first one is if the killing of Turkish ethnic minorities during WWI was really a Genocide or not. The core of the UN definition of genocide would be "...acts committed with intent to destroy... a national, ethnical, racial or religious group..." Hardly surprising, the position of Ankara is "No" and that of the Armenians is "Yes". Personally, I would concur with the latter. But that would certainly also be the case for a lot of native populations from the New World and other regions conquered by western Europeans after the Renaissance, or the central Asian populations after the Russian conquest. Historically, Genocide has not been uncommon. The second one is for how long can you hold accountable for such a crime a whole nation, or at least its government; we are talking here about some ninety years for the case of the Armenian genocide. This is the really hard question. Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think there are many different arguments at stake here. The first one is if the killing of Turkish ethnic minorities during WWI was really a Genocide or not. The core of the UN definition of genocide would be "...acts committed with intent to destroy... a national, ethnical, racial or religious group..." Hardly surprising, the position of Ankara is "No" and that of the Armenians is "Yes". Personally, I would concur with the latter. But that would certainly also be the case for a lot of native populations from the New World and other regions conquered by western Europeans after the Renaissance, or the central Asian populations after the Russian conquest. Historically, Genocide has not been uncommon. The second one is for how long can you hold accountable for such a crime a whole nation, or at least its government; we are talking here about some ninety years for the case of the Armenian genocide. This is the really hard question. Even if what happened to armenians it's a genocide this does not mean nothing. First of all because genocide it's a common occurance in the last centuries. What do you think happened with most turkish/muslim populations of the Balkans or living north of the Black Sea? A break beetwen US and Turkey will spell trouble for Iraq and Israel, will bring down the US plans in the Black Sea and Caspic regions including Central Asia were most nations are turkish. Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova etc will have to bow to Russia as a result of diminishing US power. The energetic independence of the EU will be seriously in peril. A more agresive Turkey can make troubles in the US sponsored muslim states of West Balkans (Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo). It can blow the reconciliation between Greece and Turkey and reignite the Cyprus conflict. Turkey can close ties with Iran with which it shares the concern about the kurd problem and this could mean an agreement beetween Azerbaidjan and Iran at the expanse of Armenia and more troubles for Iraq and the Gulf. US was pressuring europeans to accept Turkey, but most opposed the ideea (except his lap dog). Changes in EU political structure make this a difficult task, but a US/Turkey dispute will bring down the plans to the relish of France and Germany. Hell, Turkey has a foot everywhere around her and an amazing internal freedom of choice. Turkey it's a large mountainous country with 72 million people, the most nationalistic people I had ever seen. Military service it's compulsory and it lasts 3 years. The army's officer corps it's highly influential and well trained. Weapons are state of the art from US, UK, Germany and local production. The tanks are Leopard 2 - the best in the world. So, think again about dividing Turkey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 US was pressuring europeans to accept Turkey, but most opposed the ideea (except his lap dog). Changes in EU political structure make this a difficult task, but a US/Turkey dispute will bring down the plans to the relish of France and Germany. Hell, Turkey has a foot everywhere around her and an amazing internal freedom of choice. First of all, I totally agree with you. That said, I think the EU will never willingly accept Turkey. Then, you could consider the genocide issue simply as an excuse for US to stop pressing the EU and for both of them to get more concessions from Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I also agree that EU will never willingly accept Turkey, but I don't see how the US will get concesions from Turkey by aggravating them. Before the Congress vote, the turkish goverment asked the turkish parliament for permission to send a military force in the Irakian Kurdistan. The US decision makes the turkish decision much easier. So, we will see the turkish army raiding Kurdistan. This might not be a problem as it happened before, but what if the kurdish units of the Irak army fight back? It will be a tense situation. How deep the turks will go, will they strike public installations, what the kurds will do, will US consider this a threat, what the iraq goverment will do about this break of their soveraignity will be happy - sad etc ? Today on IHT they did not say that turkish ambasador in Washington was recalled for consultations. But they spoke about the turkish pressure on Israel and the not-so-vailed threat to breake the de facto alliance that is in place beetwen the two countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) I also agree that EU will never willingly accept Turkey, but I don't see how the US will get concesions from Turkey by aggravating them. Before the Congress vote, the turkish goverment asked the turkish parliament for permission to send a military force in the Irakian Kurdistan. The US decision makes the turkish decision much easier.So, we will see the turkish army raiding Kurdistan. This might not be a problem as it happened before, but what if the kurdish units of the Irak army fight back? It will be a tense situation. How deep the turks will go, will they strike public installations, what the kurds will do, will US consider this a threat, what the iraq goverment will do about this break of their soveraignity will be happy - sad etc ? Today on IHT they did not say that turkish ambasador in Washington was recalled for consultations. But they spoke about the turkish pressure on Israel and the not-so-vailed threat to breake the de facto alliance that is in place beetwen the two countries. Something like that might always happen, but being that the case, I think the Turks have much more to lose than either the US or the EU, especially on the economic ground. I think we are going to see a more conservative and diplomatic solution to this incident. Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Ratus Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 The second one is for how long can you hold accountable for such a crime a whole nation, or at least its government; we are talking here about some ninety years for the case of the Armenian genocide. This is the really hard question. How long can you hold a nation responsible? The Germans have been held responsible for the Holocaust for over 60 years. They still pay reperations, and yet the NSDAP hasn't held power since 1945. All of it's upper hierarchy are dead. All I'm saying is that the hypocrisy needs to stop. Also, the Kurds have ben fighting for freedom for years and are always getting screwed over. When they rose up during the 1st Gulf War the U.S. sold them out by not aiding them. Now in our current war, the Kurds are aiding us in Iraq, despite our past betrayal. I have friend and another co-worker, both who fought in the current war. Both say that the Kurdish areas were the only areas they didn't feel endangered in. If the US won't back the Kurds in this current round of aggression, then we are only showing what fair-weather friends we really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladict Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 It seems that US politicians have decided to stir new problems in the quiet Middle East. The vote on the armenian genocide it's pointless and useless, but extremists are sure to profit from it. Agreed. As it seems that both the Turks and the Armenians are less than pleased with Washington's vote, it's hard to see what good it's supposed to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Take a look at: http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...;blogid=32& Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Neil Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 (edited) On the whole, I do find this debate (the political one, not this discussion!) pointless. All countries who have been baddies at some stage gloss over the facts, or refuse to admit anything point blank, and the rest of the world goes: yeah. okay... I think there is a majority view worldwide that this was a genocide, and the Turkish position on this always looks untenable and slightly infantile to most observers, so let us leave it at that. There are many similar instances: Perhaps not of Genocide, but of wrong-doing that nations keep quiet about, or even deny in blatant contradiction to the known facts. British school children do not learn very much about our scuttling the French navy in 1940. Russians believe that Finland started the Winter war (Finland atacking Russia?? ok...) and the US keeps quiet about pushing Spain into a corner in order to start a war which gave them Puerto Rico. Where does it end? Edited October 16, 2007 by Northern Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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