JP Vieira Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 (edited) Hello The Sumerian armies introduced many features lately to be found in other armies. One of those was the war chariot. However the model depicted in Sumerian art and its role in war is very controversial. Many scholars claim that this device could not have been use in war (the way we imagine chariots do) because it did not posses the necessary characteristics to do it;. Many believe that this chariot was in fact a Edited October 25, 2007 by JP Vieira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Assuming the technical details are correct, I can see why it isn't considered a battlefield asset. Chariots are useful by virtue of their speed. They allow men to rush in close and deliver missiles quickly, or to intimidate and confuse formations by riding up close and sweeping past. A four wheeled chariot? How does it steer? War chariots are invariably single axled for manoeverablity. Intersting pic, but as an aside, shouldn't the Sumerians have a swarthier skin tone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Did they have horses? I thought donkeys or oxen were used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Did they have horses? I thought donkeys or oxen were used. Salve, Amici. Certainly not. I think the depicted equines are onagers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Did they have horses? I thought donkeys or oxen were used. Salve, Amici. Certainly not. I think the depicted equines are onagers. From Wiki..... Onagers are a little larger than donkeys at about 290 kg and 2.1 metres (head-body length), and are a little more horse-like. They are short-legged compared to horses, and their coloring varies depending on the season. They are generally reddish-brown in color during the summer, becoming yellowish-brown in the winter months. They have a black stripe bordered in white that extends down the middle of the back. They are notoriously untameable. Equids were used in ancient Sumer to pull wagons circa 2600 BC, and then chariots on the Standard of Ur, circa 2000 BC. These have been suggested to represent Onagers, but are now thought to have been domestic asses. Similar to the ones depicted by JP, apart from there's no mane on these guy's and their ears are slightly longer. Edited October 12, 2007 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecimusCaesar Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 A four wheeled chariot? How does it steer? War chariots are invariably single axled for manoeverablity. Intersting pic, but as an aside, shouldn't the Sumerians have a swarthier skin tone? Interestingly it doesn't steer. A chariot can only change direction if it has spoked wheels. Considering that the Sumerian chariot did have that, if it were to turn too quickly it would either brake the wheels - which were held in place by ropes- or the chariot would tip over. Thre Sumerians in effect could only head forward in battle. If they had to stop and change around they had to physically move it. As such it was only good for intimdating the enemy, who would most probably never have seen such a thing (considering this was over 4,000 years ago). I noticed that in recent years that archaeologists no longer refer to it as a chariot, but as a 'Battle Wagon'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 So, the beasts in the picture are donkeys (asses). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 So, the beasts in the picture are donkeys (asses). Their semi-domesticated wild ancestors, to be precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praebitorae Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Vaguely I recal having seen a scene like this in stone. If my memmory serves me well it dates pre- Sargon of Akkad (not to be confused with Sargon of Assyria) The Gutean age say Ur, Uruk,Lagash around 2500 B.C. Somewhere between roughly 26 and 2300BC Horses where introduced into Meso Warfare as the Standart of Ur showes us. http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosai...ndard_of_ur.jpg But I've to say it again...absolutly grand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 How can you tell that those animals depicted on the Standard are horses and not donkeys? They look small to me, but first horses were small. I ask because horses can be used in battle while donkeys can not. A horse drown chariot can be used on the battlefield while a donkey chariot it's a battletaxi. Even an unsteerable chariot can be send head on against the enemy. The chariots in the pictures have a big board to the front and that can be seen as a defensive shield against frontal attacks (or maybe against the donkeys kicking back). It makes no sense heaving a shield on a battletaxi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praebitorae Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 The way they are drawn the motion of the animals brings me to a 95% conclusion that they are indeed horses and not donkey's. Indeed the Horses started in there evolution about the size of dogs but in the age I was speaking of larger horses where already there ofcourse next to them smaller gatherings exsisted as they do still today. However youre sugestion that donkey chariots where used to bring (e.t fresh ) troops up to the battelfield should not be simply ignored. Ore that those where used for routine patrole buisness bearing in mind that often these city-states covered quite a bit of terr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Vieira Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 These are onagers: one simple way to differenciate them from horses are their tails (like a donkey tail). Thanks for the comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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