"Stabia was destroyed by Silla in 89AD" ??

[spittle]

I have just recieved a book on Pompeii. Its full of bad English as its the type of cheap puiblication that hawkers sell at tourist sites in the area.

On one page it says

"...Pompeii and Herculaneum destroyed by eruption of Vesuvius in 79AD.....Stabia completely destroyed by SILLA during his occupation og 89AD and rebuilt only partially"

Do you think they mean SULLA in 89BC ?

 

Or was there a SILLA occupying partially rebuilt places within the area devastated by the volcano a decade earlier?

 

I have never heard of him if he existed.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Do you think they mean SULLA in 89BC ?

 

Yes. See Pliny. (Can't find English translation)

[ASCLEPIADES]

Do you think they mean SULLA in 89BC ?

 

Yes. See Pliny. (Can't find English translation)

Here comes Caius Plinius Secundus Maior, Naturalis Historia. Liber III, Ch. V, Sec. LXX:

 

"Ita ex antiquo Latio LIII populi interiere sine vestigiis. in Campano autem agro Stabiae oppidum fuere usque ad Cn. Pompeium L. Catonem cos. pr. kal. Mai., quo die L. Sulla legatus bello sociali id delevit, quod nunc in villam abiit. intercidit ibi et Taurania.

 

Thus of the Old Latium there be fifty-three States perished, without any Remains left behind. Moreover, in the Campaign Country, the Town Stabiae continued to the Time that Cn. Pompeius and L. Cato were Consuls, the last Day of April ; upon which Day L. Sylla, Legate in the Social War, destroyed it utterly : which now is turned into Farm-houses. There is decayed also there Taurania."

 

This text had to be edited (Please check posts #7 and #9 on this thread)

Edited October 8, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[spittle]

In the latin it says 'L. Sulla legatus' whereas the translation says 'L. Sylla legate'.

 

Is this, as I suspect, just a typo?

 

I'm sorry for splitting hairs its just the Sulla/Silla/Sylla thing.

 

At the back of RUBICON there is a timeline that states,

"89BC: Sulla, canpaigning in Samnium, brings an effective end to the Italian revolt".

 

It would be a real coincidence if Sulla (89BC) and Silla (89AD) had devestated the area but, sometimes, these wierd coincidences do exist and complicate history.

 

thanks for the clarifications.

[ASCLEPIADES]

In the latin it says 'L. Sulla legatus' whereas the translation says 'L. Sylla legate'.

 

Is this, as I suspect, just a typo?

 

I'm sorry for splitting hairs its just the Sulla/Silla/Sylla thing.

 

You're right, they are simply alternative (and valid) spellings of the same cognomen of a Patrician family within the Gens Cornelia, to which the notorious Dictator LC Sulla Felix belonged; the Roman Republic had more than enough devastation with only one like him.

 

Alternative spellings are not uncommon for Classical Latin names.

 

"Sulla" would be the most commonly founded spelling on primary sources.

[ASCLEPIADES]

In the latin it says 'L. Sulla legatus' whereas the translation says 'L. Sylla legate'.

 

Is this, as I suspect, just a typo?

 

I'm sorry for splitting hairs its just the Sulla/Silla/Sylla thing.

You're right, they are simply alternative (and valid) spellings of the same cognomen of a Patrician family within the Gens Cornelia, to which the notorious Dictator LC Sulla Felix belonged; the Roman Republic had more than enough devastation with only one like him.

 

Alternative spellings are not uncommon for Classical Latin names.

 

"Sulla" would be the most commonly founded spelling on Latin sources.

 

"Sylla" is a Hellenism (Σύλλα) and "Silla" is its latinized form; consequently, they are prevalent on Greek sources, particularly Plutarchus and Appian, both of them paramount for the study of this Dictator.

Edited October 8, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[M. Porcius Cato]

Here comes Caius Plinius Secundus Maior, Naturalis Historia. Liber III, Ch. V, Sec. LXX:

"Ita ex antiquo Latio LIII populi interiere sine vestigiis. in Campano autem agro Stabiae oppidum fuere usque ad Cn. Pompeium L. Catonem cos. pr. kal. Mai., quo die L. Sulla legatus bello sociali id delevit, quod nunc in villam abiit. intercidit ibi et Taurania.

Thus of the Old Latium there be fifty-three States perished, without any Remains left behind. Moreover, in the Campaign Country, the Town Stabiae continued to the Time that Cn. Pompeius and L. Carbo were Consuls, the last Day of April ; upon which Day L. Sylla, Legate in the Social War, destroyed it utterly : which now is turned into Farm-houses. There is decayed also there Taurania."

 

L Carbo? Ahem.

[Klingan]

I believe Silla is the French spelling of the name. I won't swear on it though. Do you know what language the book was originally written in?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here comes Caius Plinius Secundus Maior, Naturalis Historia. Liber III, Ch. V, Sec. LXX:

"Ita ex antiquo Latio LIII populi interiere sine vestigiis. in Campano autem agro Stabiae oppidum fuere usque ad Cn. Pompeium L. Catonem cos. pr. kal. Mai., quo die L. Sulla legatus bello sociali id delevit, quod nunc in villam abiit. intercidit ibi et Taurania.

Thus of the Old Latium there be fifty-three States perished, without any Remains left behind. Moreover, in the Campaign Country, the Town Stabiae continued to the Time that Cn. Pompeius and L. Carbo were Consuls, the last Day of April ; upon which Day L. Sylla, Legate in the Social War, destroyed it utterly : which now is turned into Farm-houses. There is decayed also there Taurania."

 

L Carbo? Ahem.

 

Gratiam habeo, MPC. It's hilarious, I didn't check the names of the consuls (obviously) .

 

The only translation I was able to find online was that of DR. PHILEMON HOLLAND,ED. 1601.

 

It's almost a shame to edit a text more than four hundred years old, but a mistake is a mistake.

[Primus Pilus]

I've always been baffled by alternate spellings. Why C Iulius Caesar became G. Julius Caesar I will never quite understand. It's not as if the English G and J are equivalent in pronunciation to the Latin C and I. Why do we pronounce Kikero (Cicero) as Sisero, but yet Cato is Kato and not Sato?

 

Sorry for the aside, it's just an irritant that I felt compelled to complain about.

[Nephele]

Here comes Caius Plinius Secundus Maior, Naturalis Historia. Liber III, Ch. V, Sec. LXX:

"Ita ex antiquo Latio LIII populi interiere sine vestigiis. in Campano autem agro Stabiae oppidum fuere usque ad Cn. Pompeium L. Catonem cos. pr. kal. Mai., quo die L. Sulla legatus bello sociali id delevit, quod nunc in villam abiit. intercidit ibi et Taurania.

Thus of the Old Latium there be fifty-three States perished, without any Remains left behind. Moreover, in the Campaign Country, the Town Stabiae continued to the Time that Cn. Pompeius and L. Carbo were Consuls, the last Day of April ; upon which Day L. Sylla, Legate in the Social War, destroyed it utterly : which now is turned into Farm-houses. There is decayed also there Taurania."

 

L Carbo? Ahem.

 

Gratiam habeo, MPC. It's hilarious, I didn't check the names of the consuls (obviously) .

 

The only translation I was able to find online was that of DR. PHILEMON HOLLAND,ED. 1601.

 

It's almost a shame to edit a text more than four hundred years old, but a mistake is a mistake.

 

Perhaps Dr. Philemon Holland was likely one of those "modern writers" criticized by classicist William Smith, who gives an interesting accounting of the cognomen "Sulla" in his Dictionary, stating that "There is no authority for writing the word Sylla, as is done by many modern writers. On coins and inscriptions we always find Sula or Sulla, never Sylla."

 

Asclepiades, in your edited posting above you mentioned that the Hellenism of "Sylla" and its Latinized form of "Silla" are "prevalent on Greek sources, particularly Plutarchus and Appian." I'd be interested if you could point me to any online examples you might have found. Does this contradict William Smith then?

 

-- Nephele

[ASCLEPIADES]

Perhaps Dr. was likely one of those "modern writers" criticized by classicist William Smith, who gives an interesting accounting of the cognomen "Sulla" in his Dictionary, stating that "There is no authority for writing the word Sylla, as is done by many modern writers. On coins and inscriptions we always find Sula or Sulla, never Sylla."

 

Asclepiades, in your edited posting above you mentioned that the Hellenism of "Sylla" and its Latinized form of "Silla" are "prevalent on Greek sources, particularly Plutarchus and Appian." I'd be interested if you could point me to any online examples you might have found. Does this contradict William Smith then?

 

-- Nephele

Salve, Lady N et amici.

 

I'm not sure if the English translator Dr. Philemon Holland (1552 - 1637) might have been considered modern by W. Smith (XIX Century).

 

This link goes to a Greek version of Plutarchus Σύλλας, which is the Greek term that you get with the transliteration of "Sulla".

 

Now, if you transliterate Σύλλας back to Latin, let say from Plutarchus or Appian, you may get Sylla, because its second letter is the uppercase (standard) version of the Hellenic Upsilon.

 

All that said, the argumentation of W. Smith is unimpeachable.

Edited October 8, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

I believe Silla is the French spelling of the name. I won't swear on it though. Do you know what language the book was originally written in?

Salve, K.

 

French: Sylla; Italian: Silla; Spanish: Sila or even Sula.

 

The book is a direct Elizabethan English translation of Plinius' work, clearly requiring some additional proofreading.

[Klingan]

Thanks for the answer Asclepiades. For the record I feel that I must agree very strongly with PP's feelings about changing name. You English ppl seems to love it. It's somewhat better in Swedish but far from perfect. As we used to influence your language 1000 years ago, you're having heavy influence on ours today.

 

What's even worse is when names get changed all over, the latest example that made me throw up my morning tea, was the Swedish King Karl XII (1682-1718 A.D) who was renamed Charles XII. What in Gods name was that good for? They could at least settle for Carl if they really felt the need to change it.