M. Porcius Cato Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 As a politician Augustus is somewhat lacklustre. Although he made some adjustments like his military reforms, he isn't remembered for the events and advances of his reign, but the manner he got there, and the length of time he stayed in office. In many ways, he resembles a third world dictator.[/size] I'm sorry, Caldrail, this is total tommy rot! I am not sure what books you have been reading at all! There was the little thing called The Augustan Peace; there was an enormous rebuilding programme and advances in engineering; there was the founding of colonies; there was stability. Augustus's reign was remembered for all these things. And you are not prepared to call them 'events and advances'? Words fail me, for once - they really do. Augustus' reign may have contained many fine things, but this thread was on the man and not his legacy. I don't think Caldrail is wrong to point out that Octavian's character (at least when he was young) is relevant to understanding "what Augustus was like". I assume you don't think that it was the avuncular Brian Blessed-type of fellow who had the family of Livia murdered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 (edited) As a politician Augustus is somewhat lacklustre. Although he made some adjustments like his military reforms, he isn't remembered for the events and advances of his reign, but the manner he got there, and the length of time he stayed in office. In many ways, he resembles a third world dictator.[/size] I'm sorry, Caldrail, this is total tommy rot! I am not sure what books you have been reading at all! There was the little thing called The Augustan Peace; there was an enormous rebuilding programme and advances in engineering; there was the founding of colonies; there was stability. Augustus's reign was remembered for all these things. And you are not prepared to call them 'events and advances'? Words fail me, for once - they really do. Augustus' reign may have contained many fine things, but this thread was on the man and not his legacy. I don't think Caldrail is wrong to point out that Octavian's character (at least when he was young) is relevant to understanding "what Augustus was like". I assume you don't think that it was the avuncular Brian Blessed-type of fellow who had the family of Livia murdered? As you can read at the original quotation, Caldrail remark was indeed about Octavius' legacy; I cannot agree more with Lady A commentary. I assume nobody on this thread has ever characterized Octavius as an avuncular or Brian Blessed-type fellow. Edited October 24, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Augusta Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 As you can read at the original quotation, Caldrail remark was indeed about Octavius' legacy; I cannot agree more with Lady A commentary. I assume nobody on this thread has ever characterized Octavius as an avuncular or Brian Blessed-type fellow. Absolutely not - certainly not me, Asclepiades. However, to pick up MPC's point about the actual character of the man himself - admitting that he was cold-hearted and ruthless as a person does not mean in any way that he was less of a ruler. We who admire Augustus on the Forum (and there are quite a few of us) do not for one moment have any misconceptions about his inner character. But I'm sure our MPC knows that. He's just being provocative, the devil May all the gods forbid that the real Augustus should have been anything like Brian Blessed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 As a politician Augustus is somewhat lacklustre. Although he made some adjustments like his military reforms, he isn't remembered for the events and advances of his reign, but the manner he got there, and the length of time he stayed in office. In many ways, he resembles a third world dictator. [/size] I'm sorry, Caldrail, this is total tommy rot! I am not sure what books you have been reading at all! There was the little thing called The Augustan Peace; there was an enormous rebuilding programme and advances in engineering; there was the founding of colonies; there was stability. Augustus's reign was remembered for all these things. And you are not prepared to call them 'events and advances'? Words fail me, for once - they really do. The augustan peace was kept in place by a man who acted much like a modern dictator or gangster - anyone who questioned the regime too much either listened to reason or disappeared. The colonies were a roman franchise, an extension of Augustus's regime, and a means to increase his income which he could then use to further beautify Rome and buy popular support. Making a city beautiful isn't so unusual, lots of dictators have done that, including Hitler whom you rate so highly. Tommy rot? No, I feel healthy enough and read the same books as you. I'm just not fooled by the statues or public image. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) The augustan peace was kept in place by a man who acted much like a modern dictator or gangster - anyone who questioned the regime too much either listened to reason or disappeared. The colonies were a roman franchise, an extension of Augustus's regime, and a means to increase his income which he could then use to further beautify Rome and buy popular support. Making a city beautiful isn't so unusual, lots of dictators have done that, including Hitler whom you rate so highly. Tommy rot? No, I feel healthy enough and read the same books as you. I'm just not fooled by the statues or public image. , By that standard, most Roman politicians, especially those from the Civil War period, acted much like modern dictators or gangsters, and most who didn't simply hadn't the chance to express themselves. With the exception of Caesar and a couple more, they had no tolerance for opposition (and for Caesar at least, that tolerance was no good business). Even the annexation of Cyprus by Cato Minor, depicted by MPC in a recent thread, was an Anschluss-like manoeuvre. If Octavius is remembered today, it's because his reign contained many fine things, not only a public image, statues or a beautiful city (impressive by themselves and not very usual for me); Lady A had just enumerated some of them. Once again, Augustus was no Maximinus Thrax. Edited October 25, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 As a politician Augustus is somewhat lacklustre. Although he made some adjustments like his military reforms, he isn't remembered for the events and advances of his reign, but the manner he got there, and the length of time he stayed in office. In many ways, he resembles a third world dictator. [/size] I'm sorry, Caldrail, this is total tommy rot! I am not sure what books you have been reading at all! There was the little thing called The Augustan Peace; there was an enormous rebuilding programme and advances in engineering; there was the founding of colonies; there was stability. Augustus's reign was remembered for all these things. And you are not prepared to call them 'events and advances'? Words fail me, for once - they really do. The augustan peace was kept in place by a man who acted much like a modern dictator or gangster - anyone who questioned the regime too much either listened to reason or disappeared. The colonies were a roman franchise, an extension of Augustus's regime, and a means to increase his income which he could then use to further beautify Rome and buy popular support. Making a city beautiful isn't so unusual, lots of dictators have done that, including Hitler whom you rate so highly. Tommy rot? No, I feel healthy enough and read the same books as you. I'm just not fooled by the statues or public image. , Please help me. Where was the above point made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Augusta Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 As a politician Augustus is somewhat lacklustre. Although he made some adjustments like his military reforms, he isn't remembered for the events and advances of his reign, but the manner he got there, and the length of time he stayed in office. In many ways, he resembles a third world dictator. [/size] I'm sorry, Caldrail, this is total tommy rot! I am not sure what books you have been reading at all! There was the little thing called The Augustan Peace; there was an enormous rebuilding programme and advances in engineering; there was the founding of colonies; there was stability. Augustus's reign was remembered for all these things. And you are not prepared to call them 'events and advances'? Words fail me, for once - they really do. The augustan peace was kept in place by a man who acted much like a modern dictator or gangster - anyone who questioned the regime too much either listened to reason or disappeared. The colonies were a roman franchise, an extension of Augustus's regime, and a means to increase his income which he could then use to further beautify Rome and buy popular support. Making a city beautiful isn't so unusual, lots of dictators have done that, including Hitler whom you rate so highly. Tommy rot? No, I feel healthy enough and read the same books as you. I'm just not fooled by the statues or public image. , Please help me. Where was the above point made? For the life of me I can't think how he's managed to get that in his head - unless its from this thread, in which I stated why Hitler had been 'influential'. Hardly the same as 'rating him highly'. Nor am I 'blinded' by Augustus' public image, as Caldrail seems to think. However, I am glad I do not possess the level of blind cynicism that has been shown in some of the above posts. There is no point in further dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 "Returning to this thread, I am going to go (somewhat controversially) for Adolf Hitler. If you think about a leader who has had the most profound effect on the world today, then he has to be in with the biggest shout. I think it is in no small measure due to Hitler that we have become more politically correct and anti-racist in our current generation. No doubt the other candidates in the poll have left great legacies too, but I do believe that along with the great socialist thinkers of the 19th century, Hitler (against all his intentions) has had a huge effect on making us a more egalitarian and tolerant society. It's just a thought." Caldrail, if this is the post you are referring to, I believe that you have come to a conclusion outside of its context. Even without the context, you are in error. Can't you see that the prose is 'irony'? You have delivered a slander on The Augusta. I guess that the above will make an end to this thread. Sorry all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 I guess that the above will make an end to this thread. Sorry all. I think that makes an end to it, as well. Am locking this topic for the time being, as the subject is pretty much done in now. If another Mod feels differently, then he can reopen this later. -- Nephele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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