Carthage

[ASCLEPIADES]

I think what the Romans wanted to erradicate was the Cartaginian people, not specifically their language.

 

It presumably survived at least until the VII Century, when it probably got mixed with the Arabic, another semitic language.

 

The following comes from en.wikipedia:

 

"The significantly divergent later-form of the language that was spoken in the Tyrian Phoenician colony of Carthage is known as Punic; it remained in use there for considerably longer than Phoenician did in Phoenicia itself, arguably surviving into Augustine's time. It may have even survived the Arabic conquest of North Africa: the geographer al-Bakri describes a people speaking a language that was not Berber, Latin or Coptic in the city of Sirt in northern Libya, a region where spoken Punic survived well past written use. However it is likely that Arabization of the Punics was facilitated by their language belonging to the same group (the Semitic languages group) as that of the conquerors, and thus having many grammatical and vocabulary similarities.

 

The ancient Lybico-Berber alphabet derived from the Punic script still in irregular use by modern Berber groups such as the Touareg is known by the native name tifinaġ, possibly a declined form of the borrowed word Pūnic. Direct borrowings from Punic appear in modern Berber dialects: one interesting example is agadir "wall" from Punic gader. This term also served as the origin of the name of the Spanish city of C

Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[Gaius Octavius]

Up to now, it has been shown that their glyphs exist and that a grammar exists. How can a grammar exist without literature and a Rosetta Stone?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Up to now, it has been shown that their glyphs exist and that a grammar exists. How can a grammar exist without literature and a Rosetta Stone?

Basically, Literature is artistic writing, being art itself the conscious production of beauty; it's a universal feature of any Language, written or not, and we can reasonably infer its existance, either being it known or not by us.

 

On the other hand, a "Rosetta stone" (ie, the parallel multiple translation of a representative text that includes at least one version in a well known language) is totally another story. Its existence cannot be simply inferred, even less its preservation. Anuyway, I wouldn't be surprised if such text were eventually found for the Punic language, given the long relationship of Carthage witn both Hellenic and Latin populations.

Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[Gaius Octavius]

Big A, I am a little confused. Are you saying that an Aztec grammar can be produced?

[ASCLEPIADES]

Big A, I am a little confused. Are you saying that an Aztec grammar can be produced?

Well, now I am even more confused, because I never said anything like that.

 

Anyway, here's an Aztec grammar.

 

I hope it may be useful for you.

 

Edited October 12, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[Pantagathus]

May one take it that writings do exist in Carthaginian and not simply in translations?

Are you asking if direct Punic writing exists & not through Greek or Roman translations?

 

The answer is indeed yes in the form of funerary epigraphy, religious & commemorative inscriptions. No direct literature per se but enough extant writing for grammar to be painstakingly pieced together.

 

For what it

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Whilst looking up the origin of the Hungarian language (Finno-Ugrian group), I came across a statement that the Carthaginian language is an offshoot of Hebr

Although there is a linguistic similarity because of their both being Semitic languages, I doubt that the Phoenician tongue is derived from Hebrew. More likely it is the other way round, as the Phoenicians were an established community in Palestine before the arrival of the Hebrews there.

The linguistic similarity can be seen in the choice of certain words, e.g. the shofetes that were so influential in Carthage have an echo in the Hebrew shofetim which means judges or advocates. Interestingly, the word for intercession in Arabic is shafaat. Go figure.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Gladius Hispaniensis

[Andreas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Papyri

 

I really, really hope they get the permission and the funds to fully excavate this building.

 

If we're lucky it might contain Punic literature or even other lost invaluable texts.

 

Phoenician and its daughter language Punic were around for at least a thousand years. Imagine what their texts could tell us?

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Papyri

 

I really, really hope they get the permission and the funds to fully excavate this building.

 

If we're lucky it might contain Punic literature or even other lost invaluable texts.

 

Phoenician and its daughter language Punic were around for at least a thousand years. Imagine what their texts could tell us?

If we're really lucky we might get a different perspective on events such as the Punic Wars and the more unsavoury aspects of Carthaginian culture that we only know about through the medium of Roman and Greek authors. This is a really fascinating thread. Punic civilisation IMO hasn't gotten the attention it truly deserves and this is nobody's fault. Just one of those vagaries of history. Much of what we know about the Philistines is through the writers of the Old Testament and practically all we know about Carthage and its minions is through it's detractors. Crying shame.

[Andreas]

Josephus claimed to use the Tyrian Chronicles as a source and they supposedly went back a thousand years.

 

Even if they were brief and sparse on detail they would be a treasure trove as they'd detail an era and region where the Bible is the only significant literary source.

Imagine the whirlwind of theological debate if they were ever recovered!

[barca]

Josephus claimed to use the Tyrian Chronicles as a source and they supposedly went back a thousand years.

 

Even if they were brief and sparse on detail they would be a treasure trove as they'd detail an era and region where the Bible is the only significant literary source.

Imagine the whirlwind of theological debate if they were ever recovered!

 

I found an interesting website which already is revising Biblical History:

 

http://phoenicia.org/jezebel.html

[Andreas]

Josephus claimed to use the Tyrian Chronicles as a source and they supposedly went back a thousand years.

 

Even if they were brief and sparse on detail they would be a treasure trove as they'd detail an era and region where the Bible is the only significant literary source.

Imagine the whirlwind of theological debate if they were ever recovered!

 

I found an interesting website which already is revising Biblical History:

 

http://phoenicia.org/jezebel.html

 

Yeah. They have some interesting articles and bits of information I've found but I recommend a healthy dose of sceptiscism towards some of the more loose assumptions.

 

http://phoenicia.org/jefferson.html