GETICA of Iordanes

[diegis]

I think many hear about Jordanes and his "Getica" ( inspired by Cassiodorus work ). The intriguing problem is that Iordanes ( and others ) consider that Get is the same with Got(h). First, he began to write his history of goths under the name "Getica", and mix all the time the terms and the "peoples", consider them the same. He write about the fights between Massa Getae queen Tomiris against Cyrus of Persia, saying that then was the first time when gots ( not getes, as normal ) see silk tents or the fact that Zamolxis, the supreme dacian god was the god and first legislator of goths. He saids that goths come from Scandza (today Scandinav penisula) with 3 ships ( gepids a related peoples, with just one ), but this is more like mythology, probably inspired by famous "Eneida" of Vergilius, for romans origins. The scandinavia area was too harsh as enviroment, because of hard and prolonged ice age, that big or developed exist back then ( another aspect is the fact that a society is developed around places were salt exist, since salt is a vital resource for life, human and animal as well ). Instead, getians / dacians, considered north thracians, was the most numerous peoples on earth, after indians, as Herodotus said, and, the Dacian empire of Burebista have in west the borders at Hercinic Forests, as Caesar said, in north until Baltic Sea area ( presumtive place were goths ships landed, <Gothiscandza>), and in east deep in north of Black Sea. So, is posible that after defeating of Dacian kingdoom of Decebal ( who was much smaler, thus more developed then one of Burebista )by romans under Traian, get /dacian tribes ( considered later as gots )who lived in north of established Dacian kingdoom of Decebal ( who try to escape in north, after battle for Sarmisegetuza ), joined with so called <free Dacians> ( dacians from parts of old kingdoom who was not ocupied by romans ), and begin to atack the Roman empire ( as other ancient chronicles said, and many roman emperors who take the name Dacicus, Carpicus and Goticus ). Because of little knowledge about goths, especialy germans, ( but french too ) consider them as east germans, but there is many exceptions too ( beside Cassiodorus and Iordanes ). For ex. Philostorgius (368-425) : <scythians from behind the Istros ( another name for Danube), who olders name them Geate, and the ones from our time Goths>. Claudius Claudianus write many works, in one of them, "De bello Gothico" (402) use the name "got" just in title, in the rest of writing using names Get and Dacians to designate goths. Others, as Iulian tha Apostate, Ausonius ( in a epigrame for emperor Gratian), or Prudentius ( 348-405 in Divinity of Christos )name the same goths as getae ( Prudentius even name the Alaric as Getae tiran ). Hyeronimus (345-420) said : <certainly all the erudits from the past use...for goths, the name getae, instead of Gog and Magog>. As well, Carol Lundius, in "Zamolsiz, primum Getarum legislator" (Uppsala, 1687 ), write: <without doubt, Getae and Goths was one and the same nation>. There are many others who said the same thing ( another ex., one of the greatest roman generals, Belisarius, take the overname GETICUS, after he defeate the ... goths !!!! ), and consider an important influence of getians / dacians over the north and even west Europe, but i think the post is long enough until now.

[DecimusCaesar]

Jordanes usually has a habit of resurrecting long dead peoples/civilisations in his works. In his account of the Hunnic invasion of Gaul and the Battle of Chalons in AD 451, he mentions that Attila's forces consisted of peoples such as the Bastarnae - a group that, by the fifth century AD, had long disappeared. He also mentions Celts and other long defeated groups among Attila's retinue, making his invasion force seem even larger and more destructive than it actually was.

[Kosmo]

Anna Commnena in the XI C AD was speaking about scythians and dacians refering to pecenegs and hungarians while John Cantacuzino's description of the 1348 Black Death it's similar with Thucydides description of the Plague of Pericle. Later writers followed established patterns. Orban, the hungarian builder of the great gun of Mehmet II, it's called a dacian in histories written after 1453.

There is arheological evidence of a scandinavian culture established in Prussia that later migrated towards the Black Sea. And we know that the inhabitants of Souther Sweden called themselves goths until the Late Middle Ages as is proved by place names like Gotland, Goteborg etc.

There is no later mention of getae so this name could have disapeared in to the notion of dacians or replaced by later names like carpi.

For sure there was a confusion between gets and gots, but this was made on purpose by Jordanes and other goth historians.

Also is true that the free dacians, succesors of getae, became assimilated in the goth groups and had the same material culture before disapearing from history. So, to some extent, the visigoths and ostrogoths were succesor of both goths and getae.

It's not hard to see why some confusions were made. But claiming that goths did not exist or that dacians originated from Scandinavia is inaccurate.

It is evident that goths spoke an East German language and getae spoke a thracian language similar with that of dacians and moesians, belonging to the north thracian group.

[diegis]

I think the problem is more complicated. First, as you said, swedens call themselves Gots, but a sweden, Carol Lundius, said that Gots and Gets are, without doubt, one and the same nation. And, Scandinavian peninsulawas, until the end of Holocen, a land covered in ice ( land level was even lower then Balric Sea level, under wheigt of ice ), and after ice retreat, when Iordanes said that gots ( with just 3 ships ) come on Gothscandza, the land was too pour to suport any important population 9 as well, the absence of salt was a important factor ). I dont say that a migration from Scandinavia was not done, but is logical to say that was done by a under developed and very small population, and the bulk of so called gots consisted in fact in indo-europeans who come from the south areas ( were getians / dacians haved a empire / kingdoom later ). And, more important, Iordanes write his GETICA after he make a sort of resume of senator Cassiodorus "DE ORIGINE ACTIBUSQUE GETARUM", a work in 12 volumes, and, as well, inspire himself from writings of Ablabius, Claudius Ptolemeus, Dexippus, Dio Cassius, Flavius Josephus, Livius and Lucan,, Pompeius Trogus, Mela, Priscus, Strabon, etc. In fact, in antiq times, all who write about gots, consider them getians ( dacians ), or write the terms mixed. Just in medieval times, some germanics ( and french ) historians come with the opinion that gots was germanics, based on so called origin of them in Scandinavia ( take it from GETICA, but not quite viable, just a mythology, as one of romans with ENEAS )and their "travel" on germanics teritories, without any consistent evidence, and declare that Iordanes make a confiusion, dont know why, and dont have any prouve for that. From then, since nobody care to look closer to facts, this theory was considered the "right" one, but this theory is hard to believe, since all antiqs, who, ofcourse, was contemporans with events, write that gots was the same with gets ( Iordanes himself was a "got", and suposedly know the history of his nation ), and more abilitated to know his time realities. Why, for ex. Belisarius take the over name GETICUS, if, suposedly, all know the Gots, and all know the Dacians ( Gets ), as 2 diferent nations. Another example is church Sant Apollinare Nuovo, from Ravenna, build by Theodoric the Great, the king who order to Cassiodorus to write the history of <Getae>!!, his nation. On the wall of church, the 3 magicians apear not in traditional oriental costumes, as was the rule, but in dacian clothes, as <tarabostes>, with their traditional "pileus" cap, looking like ones from Traian Column, and the female martyrs who follow them are dress the same in dacian way, and you can even find today in popular costumes in Romania the same female clothes. I dont think all this peoples make a mistake, since they was contemporans with events and with gots ( and gets / dacians )or even was from that nation, and i think much later was done the confusion, and was arbritary considered that Iordanes is wrong, even he just copy from Cassiodor, who write at indication of Teodoric a history of his nation, clearly named GETS. As well Iordanes inspire himself from many other ancient chronicars, and all of them consider too that Gets are the old name of Gots, and they are one and the same nation.

[diegis]

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/italy/r...linare/0030.jpg

[diegis]

That is the picture on the wall of church from Ravenna build by Teodoric, with that 3 magicians dress like Dacians "tarabostes", and female martyrs dress in popular costumes who can still see in today Romania.

[Kosmo]

Gots, in the Balkans or later in Spain and Italy, have german names and use german at least before they got romanised. Even if it is possible that the dacians formed a part of gothic population the elite was german speaking.

[diegis]

Hmmm, maybe later germans have got names, not goths have germanic names. And german language is interesting too. She have a lot of dialects, many of them not inteligible between them ( the same situation with italian or french ). The actual german language is a modern "production", beeing a "cabinet" work of end of XVIII century and especially XIX century, being imposed from top to bottom, from some scholars to people masses ( same situation with french ). But gotic language is disaperead long, long time ago. So, how you consider her a true germanic language, since, actually, modern german is a sintese made especially in XIX century, and, even today, in many regions is necesary that kids learn the language at school, because their home learn dialect is not inteligible in other german regions ? The german language was not a reality existent in that days. Maybe teutones, allemans, suebii, franks can be considered germanics, but today german language is a modern creation inexistent in those times, how you can say that gots speake german ? All the languages spoke in ancient times in Europe regions have many similarities between them, and today languages are a evolution of them influenced by many things. And, if you consider that germans was the elite, how you explain the Getes ? Dacians mythology and history spread in the teritories ocupied by Gots ( both Ostrogoths and visigoths ) ? Denmark was named long time as Dacia, and danes as dni or daci, sweden scholars from medieval times consider gets and gots one and the same nation, and spanish nobles try to trace their origin on gets, this beeing the most noble origin in their "dark ages" times, and have histories of Boirista ( Burebista ), Dicineo ( Deceneu ), Decebalus and Zalmoxis ? ( see Isidor for ex. )

[Kosmo]

Do you claim the following sentances as being true? Please confirm or deny as I'm not really sure what your claim is.

People known as ostrogots and visigots were dacians, they spoke dacian and had dacian customs.

Danemark and Sweden were inhabitated by dacians.

Goths, seen as a germanic population of scandinvian origins, never existed. In their place we should speak about a dacian population named getae originar from the Carpathian region.

 

Our language it's not mutually inteligibile with latin, and a proof of this is that I don't understand most latin words, but romanian still is a romanic language and roman colonists that were the first to speak latin here could understand the people from others regions of the empire (where they came from). I'm sure you're familiar with the branching of languages. If a goth spoke a language that it's not today german does not mean that he was not speaking a german language.

[diegis]

Well, my opinion is that gots ( ostrogoths and visigoths ) was at least a mixed peoples, with both getian ( dacian ) and germanic origin, but for sure with a getae dominant part. Denmark and Sweden was not inhabited by dacians as all, but have for sure dacian peoples around, do to pre <dark age> migrations, dacians who left traces of their influence there ( see as well the <Gesta Normannorum> of Dudo of St.Quentin, chronicler of Norman dukes). Some parts of goths is posible to originate from Scandinavian peninsula ( thus is most probable a mythology the same as Romans coming from Troy ), but most important part of them was from getians origin, dacian beeing just a gets tribe who impose themselves over the other tribes. In north, this getae tribes was probably mixed with that, let say, northern "gots", but beeing the dominant element. This tribes was included in Burebista kingdoom ( considered by some even an empire, the only "barbarian" empire of Europe ), but not in Decebal kingdoom. After fall of Sarmisegetuza, Decebal try to go to this tribes, to "take them" in his fight against Roman empire, but he will be reached by roman cavalry, and comit suicide before to be captured, to not be dragged in triumph of Traian at Rome. But, later, this gets/gots, most probablly under influence of exilated dacian priests and former comanders of Decebal army will join with dacians from former Decebal kingdoom not ocupied by romans, and start to atack the Roman empire. They will never forgot their true dominant origins ( as wee can see in Teodoric church ), and all antiq chronicars contemporan with them consider them gets. About languages of that times, there is many shadows, and we cannt be sure 100% about them. Dacians was considered thracians or related with this ( and for that having a <satem> IE language ) because of fraze <the most brave and most honorable from thracians> of Herodot, but we can be sure of what type of IE language they spoke, since in all images from Traian column when both comon dacian peoples ( comati ) or nobles ( tarabostes ) speake with Traian there is no translator around, is no need of one, and was not preserved any kind of sure dacian writings ( they seems to prefer oral traditions, and use writings just at king court, as Iordanes said, but unfortunately not find yet, or posibly distroyed by romans ). And i think, in that times, most of languages spoked in Europe have many comon elements, beeing much close than today, do to much closer comon IE heritage. And yes, i beleive gots was not "true germanic" population originated from Scandinavia ( that was very hard, do to enviroment there, very inospitalier for develope any important population in ancient times ). Gots was made especially from IE population from south areas of Baltic Sea ( most probably getae tribes ) mixed with some peoples from the northern areas ( but less developed and in smaler number ), as in many parts in Europe ( see -romans with latins, samnites, sabines - celt tribes mixed with german ones - or greeks with macedonians and some thracians ). They will form later the so called <gots>, in fact a little diferent getians, with almost the same culture ( see the Zamolxis cult they spread ) and even the saame language ( probably influenced in some parts by a germanic one, as latin influence was in south ). Getians was a more numerous peoples, and they spread into a much larger teritory then Decebal kingdoom, who was just a part of Burebista ones ( ocupy aproximative just today romanian teritory ).