Flavia Gemina Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 In the third episode of season one of HBO's Rome, 'An Owl in a Thornbush', Vorenus stops at a shrine to Venus and prays that his wife will love him. He cuts his hand and drips blood onto the altar, telling Venus that he offers his own blood. Did this ever actually happen in Roman times? I thought sacrifices were always birds or animals -- maybe the occasional human -- or honey-cakes or other gifts. I would love to know if any of the primary sources support this dripping of one's own blood on an altar! Gratias ago! Flavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I would love to know too, I have always wondered about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 In the third episode of season one of HBO's Rome, 'An Owl in a Thornbush', Vorenus stops at a shrine to Venus and prays that his wife will love him. He cuts his hand and drips blood onto the altar, telling Venus that he offers his own blood. Did this ever actually happen in Roman times? I thought sacrifices were always birds or animals -- maybe the occasional human -- or honey-cakes or other gifts. I would love to know if any of the primary sources support this dripping of one's own blood on an altar! Gratias ago! Flavia I've not seen anything anywhere regarding an offering of personal blood. I would attribute it to Vorenus, being a drama queen on the edge as usual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibius Tiberius Costa Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 All right folks, wiki says that only slaves and prisoners of war and once upon a time children were sacrificed so i doubt this would happen, especially when any wound on the hand would hinder a soldier. However self-harm is different, if this was a painful but necessary way of trying to release some pent up emotion to the gods. Any thoughts? Here's the site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_religio..._Roman_Republic vtc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I agree, it's unlikely that they would cut their own hands if they were soldiers (at least, considering the way in which the Romans were armed and fought). I'd imagine, just as we have 'self-harm' today, it wasn't a completely foreign concept to Romans. It'd be hard to believe that it's a modern issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavia Gemina Posted August 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hey guys, what I'd like is a quote from a primary source or a fresco or statue or some other hard evidence that they did this in Roman times. Personally, I don't believe they did, but Jonathan Stamp and Bruno Heller usually try to get it right. Is this one of their own fabrications, like dripping breast-milk on a corpse's lips and smoking hemp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maty Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Hey guys, what I'd like is a quote from a primary source or a fresco or statue or some other hard evidence that they did this in Roman times. Personally, I don't believe they did, but Jonathan Stamp and Bruno Heller usually try to get it right. Is this one of their own fabrications, like dripping breast-milk on a corpse's lips and smoking hemp? It is certain that this was not a common practice. Roman religion was usually fastidious about the spilling of human blood. Even when the Romans sacrificed the occasional Greek or Gaul they did it by burying them alive. The nearest I can find to Vorenus' behavious is in Catiline, where the conspirators swear an oath of secrecy sealed by drinking a mixture of wine and human blood. Using human blood in religion, and the accusation of drinking it was a charge used against Christians - an understandable misconception if you happen to have just dropped in on a Christian mass. Note also that the practice of smashing champagne against a ship's bows on launching was originally red wine, which was originally blood, but that's Vikings and Saxons for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Maty is quite right. Furthermore, dripping human blood would probably be seen to profane an altar rather than to consecrate it. The closest thing to "self-harm" is when a Roman general would consecrate himself to the gods and make a suicide rush at the enemy, offering himself as a living sacrifice. This happened at rare occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Salve! I found some statements about auto-bloodletting in the Roman mystery cults of Cybele and Attis, but I haven't been able to verify its sources (supposedly Apuleius, for example). In fact, they are frequently quoted as possible pagan influences on the Christian ritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 It appears roman gods were happy enough with sacrificed animals, and in any case, the spilling of human blood in rituals seems to be something reserved for slaves who didn't really matter that much. Caligula of course thought differently, and during one rite he beat a priest to death with a hammer or something like that, but then he wasn't particularly pious as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavia Gemina Posted September 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 It appears roman gods were happy enough with sacrificed animals, and in any case, the spilling of human blood in rituals seems to be something reserved for slaves who didn't really matter that much... Yes, and that reminds me that the origin of the gladiatorial combat is thought to go back to the sacrifice of a slave at Etruscan funerals. Not everyone agrees with this theory but it does involve shedding of human blood unto death. As for the shedding of human blood as an offering on an altar, I'm now convinced it never happened. Thanks to one and all for your contributions! Flavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 ...the origin of the gladiatorial combat is thought to go back to the sacrifice of a slave at Etruscan funerals. Not everyone agrees with this theory but it does involve shedding of human blood unto death. Etruscan rites did indeed involve bloodletting of a violent kind, and therefore provided an ancestor for the gladiatorial games. However, it would have remained merely a funeral rite apart from the various influences that acted on roman society such as the need to impress your peers at funerals for political success, and the ever present background of heroic greek myth. Combat man-on-man is deeply buried in the human psyche and the romans turned it into entertainment rather than simply a reverential rite, thus the need to stage something more spectacular than anyone else produced an industry of astonishing size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavia Gemina Posted September 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 ...Combat man-on-man is deeply buried in the human psyche and the romans turned it into entertainment rather than simply a reverential rite, thus the need to stage something more spectacular than anyone else produced an industry of astonishing size. Yeah! Go Gladiators! Where would we be without them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 Personally, I don't believe they did, but Jonathan Stamp and Bruno Heller usually try to get it right. Is this one of their own fabrications, like dripping breast-milk on a corpse's lips ...? I'm so glad you mentioned this--this was simply bizarre, and try as I did, I could find no evidence for the practice at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibius Tiberius Costa Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 Personally, I don't believe they did, but Jonathan Stamp and Bruno Heller usually try to get it right. Is this one of their own fabrications, like dripping breast-milk on a corpse's lips ...? I'm so glad you mentioned this--this was simply bizarre, and try as I did, I could find no evidence for the practice at all. Why would they, what in Jupiter's beard would it stand for and a legion could not carry around a wet nurse!!!! vtc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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