Another few questions

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

He could always just use his sword. Being poked in the back with a sword would achieve roughly the same effect as being hit with a staff although I'm not sure that effect in either case would be beneficial.

 

Or shout at him, i suppose they were meant to be scary people who could 'potentially' bash you with their staff or sword or they could just give you a prod as hilariously demonstrated in this emoticon.

 

vtc

Edited August 30, 2007 by Vibius Tiberius Costa

[roman wargamer]

Where were the pila kept before being thrown?

pila are triarii main spear waepon and is not designed to be thrown like the javelin.

 

Did the triarii have a gladius and dagger as well as the hasta?

triarii have gladius and dagger but not the hasta.

 

hasta is a long thrusting spear weapon of the hastati.

 

hasta is where the hastatus get their cognomen name title.

 

time element is Julius Caesar.

[caldrail]

He could always just use his sword. Being poked in the back with a sword would achieve roughly the same effect as being hit with a staff although I'm not sure that effect in either case would be beneficial

Its more likely the errant soldier would get a shove from the optio's hand "GET BACK IN LINE LEGIONARY!"

Edited August 28, 2007 by caldrail

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

He could always just use his sword. Being poked in the back with a sword would achieve roughly the same effect as being hit with a staff although I'm not sure that effect in either case would be beneficial

Its more likely the errant soldier would get a shove from the optio's hand "GET BACK IN LINE LEGIONARY!"

 

Indeed.

 

Are you sure roman wargamer, i swear the pila are throwing spears and the hasta is the lunging spear of the triarii and the hastatus got their name because originally they had the hasta as the youngest usually had the spears but as the army evolved the spears were to immobile and not very maneouvrable.

Can anyone back me up, or am i speaking rubbish.

If by any chance i am wrong i apologise for doubting you roman wargamer.

 

vtc

[roman wargamer]

Are you sure roman wargamer,

when it come to the right or proper name of the weapon;

to be honest, i am not 100% sure because i can not read neither Greek or Latin.

i learn my ancient history subject via the English books and translation.

 

most of my reply was base on my long years of research and in-depth workguess.

 

i swear the pila are throwing spears and the hasta is the lunging spear of the triarii

your concept of pila could be what most people called or normally known as the pilum.

 

hasta is a long thrusting spear weapon of the hastati. that is my stand.

 

but as the army evolved the spears [of the hastatus] were to immobile and not very maneouvrable...

the hasta [become] the lunging spear of the triarii

if the hasta could cause immobility and not very maneouverable.

 

then why not ask the question? why a bad weapon spear hasta become a triarii weapon?

why the end defense line; the most veteran use it for their "[hasta] the lunging spear."? [of the triarii]

 

pila is the spear of the triarii. was my formal stand.

 

i hope it clears sone question.

 

Roman have [different] name for every weapon they use.

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

Are you sure roman wargamer,

when it come to the right or proper name of the weapon;

to be honest, i am not 100% sure because i can not read neither Greek or Latin.

i learn my ancient history subject via the English books and translation.

 

most of my reply was base on my long years of research and in-depth workguess.

 

i swear the pila are throwing spears and the hasta is the lunging spear of the triarii

your concept of pila could be what most people called or normally known as the pilum.

 

hasta is a long thrusting spear weapon of the hastati. that is my stand.

 

but as the army evolved the spears [of the hastatus] were to immobile and not very maneouvrable...

the hasta [become] the lunging spear of the triarii

if the hasta could cause immobility and not very maneouverable.

 

then why not ask the question? why a bad weapon spear hasta become a triarii weapon?

why the end defense line; the most veteran use it for their "[hasta] the lunging spear."? [of the triarii]

 

pila is the spear of the triarii. was my formal stand.

 

i hope it clears sone question.

 

Roman have [different] name for every weapon they use.

 

You win, sorry.

 

vtc

[caldrail]

No, he doesn't.

 

most of my reply was base on my long years of research and in-depth workguess.

Don't guess. If you don't know, look it up or ask.

 

i swear the pila are throwing spears and the hasta is the lunging spear of the triarii

your concept of pila could be what most people called or normally known as the pilum.

Pila is the plural form of the single pilum. Same weapon.

 

hasta is a long thrusting spear weapon of the hastati. that is my stand.

Hasta is a thrusting spear, the hastatii were named so for using it as a primary weapon.

 

but as the army evolved the spears [of the hastatus] were to immobile and not very maneouvrable...

the hasta [become] the lunging spear of the triarii

if the hasta could cause immobility and not very maneouverable.

 

then why not ask the question? why a bad weapon spear hasta become a triarii weapon?

why the end defense line; the most veteran use it for their "[hasta] the lunging spear."? [of the triarii]

 

pila is the spear of the triarii. was my formal stand.

 

i hope it clears sone question.

 

Roman have [different] name for every weapon they use.

The triarii were the older most experienced levies of the consular army. Roman policy was to conserve these valuable troops until the most decisive part of the battle, either in attack or defense, relying on the newbies, the hastatii, to take most of the casualties and perhaps cause some to the enemy, or at least help tire them out. "ad triarios rediisse" 'To fall back on the Triarii' was a phrase to indicate a desperate situation. As I understand it, triarii used the hasta, or long spear, not pila, since the widespread use of a spear with a bendable point was a later innovation. During republican times however the Hastatii were re-armed with gladius and pilum whereas the triarii retained the hasta as a weapon.

 

Incidentially RW, when you described the three troop types of the legion ('hastatii', 'principes', and 'triarii') you gave a time frame as 'Julius Caesar'. Caesar did not command an army until after the Marian Reforms of 107-106 BC. These reforms did away with the levied consular legion and replaced it with a professional army composed entirely of gladius/pilum armed heavy infantry. Granted the change wasn't quite instant, but remember that Marius was making standard a trend that had already been seen in the legion for years.

Edited August 30, 2007 by caldrail

[roman wargamer]

i swear the pila are throwing spears and the hasta is the lunging spear of the triarii

your concept of pila could be what most people called or normally known as the pilum.

Pila is the plural form of the single pilum. Same weapon.

then it could be the proper name is pilanus.

 

maybe, Caldrail, can help verify it in his Latin dictionary.

[roman wargamer]

These reforms did away with the levied consular legion and replaced it with a professional army

composed entirely of gladius/pilum armed heavy infantry.

i will call that type of soldier as javeliner and i will not call them as heavy infantry.

 

a soldier armed only of gladius/pilum is not better armed than a velitarius or ferentarius.

[Nephele]

Pila is the plural form of the single pilum. Same weapon.

then it could be the proper name is pilanus.

 

maybe, Caldrail, can help verify it in his Latin dictionary.

 

I'm not Caldrail, nor do I claim to be any sort of expert on Roman warfare. However, I do have a copy of Lewis & Short's massive (2,019 pages in very small print!) Latin dictionary.

 

According to Lewis & Short, pilum (plural, pila) refers to the weapon, whereas pilanus refers to the soldier who uses the pilum.

 

Also according to Lewis & Short, pilanus is merely another word for triarius, "one of the soldiers forming the third rank in battle: pilani pilis pugnantes..." My Latin is rusty, but I'm reading that phrase as: "the pilani fight with pila."

 

As I understand it, triarii used the hasta, or long spear, not pila...

 

Since Lewis & Short state that the pilanus is essentially the same as the triarius, then it would appear that the triarii would have used pila.

 

-- Nephele

[roman wargamer]

According to Lewis & Short, pilum (plural, pila) refers to the weapon, whereas pilanus refers to the soldier who uses the pilum.

 

Also according to Lewis & Short, pilanus is merely another word for triarius, "one of the soldiers forming the third rank in battle: pilani pilis pugnantes..." My Latin is rusty, but I'm reading that phrase as: "the pilani fight with pila."

 

Since Lewis & Short state that the pilanus is essentially the same as the triarius, then it would appear that the triarii would have used pila.

 

-- Nephele

my reply was qouted from:

 

Roman Army Talk.Com

 

Glossary of Roman army terminology

Antepilanus (LA): 'in front of the spearbearers'; soldier stationed in first or second battle line.

 

from this divergent explanation and reference:

 

my workguess shall be that pila could be mean as a general term for spear.

so pilanus can mean to be spearman, not javeliner as suggested. as we all know that pilum mean javelin not spear.

 

if ever then, the triarii can now mean the javeliner.

 

pilani pilis pugnantes..." ... "the pilani fight with pila."

pilum is a javelin throwing waepon... and no longer in your hand upon throw;

so it is not use for fighting like the spear which is left in the hand for thrusting.

________________________________________________________________________________

 

by the way: does any one will say that pilanus means javeliner.

[caldrail]

These reforms did away with the levied consular legion and replaced it with a professional army

composed entirely of gladius/pilum armed heavy infantry.

i will call that type of soldier as javeliner and i will not call them as heavy infantry.

Please don't, because the roman soldier of the post-marian period was indeed a heavy infantryman and as a wargamer you really ought to know that. Bear in mind the large square or squared-oval shield and heaps of armour. Not lightweight at all, and calling them a javeliner is silly, because they relied on the gladius to get in and dirty once both vollies of pila had been thrown at the enemy.

 

a soldier armed only of gladius/pilum is not better armed than a velitarius or ferentarius.

Are you serious? The whole point of skirmishers is not to get in close, but to wear down the enemy. The heavy infantry with sword and javelin on the other hand are trained for that hand-to-hand stuff.

 

Since Lewis & Short state that the pilanus is essentially the same as the triarius, then it would appear that the triarii would have used pila.

They didn't, as Polybius tells us, but that similarity is interesting. Roman words are not always as precise in meaning as we like to think. Catapulta and ballista are words used interchangeably for instance, yet a machine of this kind could be designed to fire large arrows or stone shot. By convention, we apply more specific meanings and as I'm all too aware, it can cause confusion. The same happens with cataphractii and clibinarii which have similar applications. The romans sometimes used these terms interchangeably too although we like to define the clibinarii as having an armoured horse for convenience, which was often the case. So does this explain why triarii and pilanus connection exists? I would suspect it does, since many roman writers weren't necessarily experienced in warfare themselves, and one major source (Vegetius) was writing about legions that had been superceded centuries before. Its rather like discussing AFV's and Tanks - we know the meaning, but in two hundred years it might not be so clear.