Alea Iacta Est

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Ave

I just started reading Christian Meier's biography of Caesar and came upon a very startling statement by the author. He states that "The die is cast" is an incorrect translation of Caesar's famous quote - the correct translation, according to him, is "The die will be cast".

IIRC the word "est" in Latin does mean "is", so I was wondering if I could get any clarification from forum members with a knowledge of Latin.

BTW MPC if you're reading this I'd like to discuss the book with you when I'm done since you spoke so highly of it.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Gladius Hispaniensis

[Andrew Dalby]

Ave

I just started reading Christian Meier's biography of Caesar and came upon a very startling statement by the author. He states that "The die is cast" is an incorrect translation of Caesar's famous quote - the correct translation, according to him, is "The die will be cast".

IIRC the word "est" in Latin does mean "is", so I was wondering if I could get any clarification from forum members with a knowledge of Latin.

BTW MPC if you're reading this I'd like to discuss the book with you when I'm done since you spoke so highly of it.

 

I haven't seen the book, but, relying on your quotation, Christian Meier seems to be completely wrong. You are right that "est" is the present tense, English "is": but it's worse than that, because in this particular phrase "est" is used to form the compound perfect; it corresponds to English "has been".

 

The verb we're talking about is "iacto" (to throw dice). Caesar is saying, literally, "The die has been thrown". The usual English version is neater and briefer, but that's what is meant. It's past, not future.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Here's what Meier wrote (p. 4, English translation from German original):

With the words 'The die must be cast' he crossed the Rubicon and, having made a good headway and reached Ariminum before dawn, led his soldiers into the city. These words are quotation from a comedy by Menander. The version 'The die is cast' is incorrect, for until then there had been no dicing. The game was just about to begin -- the game of war, in which the highest stakes were involved and fortune was an important player.

 

Meier's point was not about the correct translation of alea iacta est, but about what Caesar had said.

 

But didn't Caesar say, "iacta alea est"? Depending on the ancient source, Caesar either

(1) quoted Menander in Greek by saying,

[WotWotius]

According to Plutarch, Caesar uttered the famous phrase in Greek:

 

'And now word was brought that Caesar had seized Ariminum, a large city of Italy, and was marching directly upon Rome with all his forces. But this was false. For he was marching with no more than three hundred horsemen and five thousand men-at‑arms; the rest of his forces were beyond the Alps, and he did not wait for them, since he wished to fall upon his enemies suddenly, when they were in confusion and did not expect him, rather than to give them time and fight them after they were prepared. And so, when he was come to the river Rubicon, which was the boundary of the province allotted to him, he stood in silence and delayed to cross, reasoning with himself, of course, upon the magnitude of his adventure. Then, like one who casts himself from a precipice into a yawning abyss, he closed the eyes of reason and put a veil between them and his peril, and calling out in Greek to the bystanders these words only, "Let the die be cast," he set his army across'.

 

-Plutarch, Life of Pompey, 60

Edited August 22, 2007 by WotWotius

[Andrew Dalby]

Here's what Meier wrote (p. 4, English translation from German original):

With the words 'The die must be cast' he crossed the Rubicon and, having made a good headway and reached Ariminum before dawn, led his soldiers into the city. These words are quotation from a comedy by Menander. The version 'The die is cast' is incorrect, for until then there had been no dicing. The game was just about to begin -- the game of war, in which the highest stakes were involved and fortune was an important player.

 

Meier's point was not about the correct translation of alea iacta est, but about what Caesar had said.

 

But didn't Caesar say, "iacta alea est"? Depending on the ancient source, Caesar either

(1) quoted Menander in Greek by saying,

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

I thouhgt this hould go here.

Why would he say such a thing, this isn't a book or a film, why would such a quote be saud throughout history if not to be simplified. Such a metaphor as he is suggesting is that all that he is about to do is but chance.

 

vtc

[sullafelix]

I thouhgt this hould go here.

Why would he say such a thing, this isn't a book or a film, why would such a quote be saud throughout history if not to be simplified. Such a metaphor as he is suggesting is that all that he is about to do is but chance.

 

vtc

I think depending on which version you go with the effect he was aiming for was either

 

(Plutarch Appian) we must show our intentions, is time to get on with it

 

or

 

(traditional) right well that's shown our cards the game's afoot

[Sertorious]

I thouhgt this hould go here.

Why would he say such a thing, this isn't a book or a film, why would such a quote be saud throughout history if not to be simplified. Such a metaphor as he is suggesting is that all that he is about to do is but chance.

 

vtc

I think depending on which version you go with the effect he was aiming for was either

 

(Plutarch Appian) we must show our intentions, is time to get on with it

 

or

 

(traditional) right well that's shown our cards the game's afoot

 

I believe Vibius Tiberius has the gist of it. The saying is usually said today to mean "we are committed to a path" - the dice are thrown and this is the reult we are committed to. In fact I understand that what Gauis Julius meant intended more along the lines of "We've made our move, but who knows what the outcome will be?" - in effect, the dice are in the air but who knows what the result will be when they land!

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

Indeed, sullafelix you have hit the nail on the head, why say it, unless it will be a formiddable line not a 'lets get on with it' kind of quote.

 

vtc

[Traianus]

hhehehe, this phrase is so good that it's becoming difficult to try to explain its multiple meanings, I think the phrase can be only explained as itself: alea iacta est