General Military Equipment Questions.

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

Firstly, how was the scutum shield attached to the arm was it with two leather straps but if the shield was curved would that have worked? My forearm doesn't bend that way. Or is it like (crude example) the original Empire Earth depicts and held only by one hand (i would think it was a bit to heavy for that)?

 

Did the standard used by the signifier double up as a weapon?

 

How do you draw the gladius? I have read it was hanging on the right side from The Romans: Their Life and Customs, to stop it from bashing into the shield so I tried hanging a toy lightsabre (not one of my lifes most highest points : it is about 50cm long so i thought it would do) from my right hand side and drawing it but i found it difficult and awkward. Also to get it to face the right way I needed to do some kind of flick thing which would have killed the man next to me. So i assumed that maybe they just went into battle with them drawn then i realised about the pila needed to be thrown.

 

Were vambraces worn on the right arm by the wealthy in the second century bc or anytime for that matter? I suppose if they weren't a lot of forearm injuries were sustained when lunging?

 

Were greaves worn on both legs, the extending left leg or the unprotected right?

 

How was the dagger drawn and held. Little finger to the hilt or thumb and first finger?

 

The roman legions were not all red, so how did they distinguish each other. The shield and helm plumage? or maybe the tunic? did naval legions have blue as a colour?

 

That'll do for now. Those who answer don't need to do every bit.

 

vtc

Edited August 20, 2007 by Vibius Tiberius Costa

[Klingan]

Firstly, how was the scutum shield attached to the arm was it with two leather straps but if the shield was curved would that have worked? My forearm doesn't bend that way. Or is it like (crude example) the original Empire Earth depicts and held only by one hand (i would think it was a bit to heavy for that)?

 

Very interesting I never thought of that. I guess it could be easily fixed by having a flat section at the back? Or if you have the normal two leather strap gripping in a 45 degrees angel it could probably work as any other shield (More probable in my opinion).

 

This is just speculations thou.

[Lost_Warrior]

Firstly, how was the scutum shield attached to the arm was it with two leather straps but if the shield was curved would that have worked? My forearm doesn't bend that way. Or is it like (crude example) the original Empire Earth depicts and held only by one hand (i would think it was a bit to heavy for that

 

The Scutum is held by a handle, it is not strapped to the arm. There is a small handle on the back of the scutum which is held, while the arm is perpendicular to the torso.

 

This isn't the best picture but it shows the back of the shield well:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/pages/pictures/scutum.jpg

 

And here's a soldier using one: http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/Photos...sting_sword.jpg

 

How do you draw the gladius? I have read it was hanging on the right side from The Romans: Their Life and Customs, to stop it from bashing into the shield so I tried hanging a toy lightsabre (not one of my lifes most highest points laugh.gif : it is about 50cm long so i thought it would do) from my right hand side and drawing it but i found it difficult and awkward. Also to get it to face the right way I needed to do some kind of flick thing which would have killed the man next to me. So i assumed that maybe they just went into battle with them drawn then i realised about the pila needed to be thrown.

 

It's difficult to imagine without having a decent sword to actually try it with, but it can be done. I've done it with a cutlass which is quite a bit longer than a gladius.

 

The blade is strapped to the right side, and the right hand is held, palm facing out to the side, to grasp the handle. Then the arm is straightened, so that the blade comes directly forward. A simple turn of the wrist gets it in the right position.

 

Were vambraces worn on the right arm by the wealthy in the second century bc or anytime for that matter? I suppose if they weren't a lot of forearm injuries were sustained when lunging?

 

Not that I know of.

 

Were greaves worn on both legs, the extending left leg or the unprotected right?

 

Centurions and other high ranking officers wore greaves on both legs. I believe the regular soldiers only wore them if they could afford them, and they weren't ornate (while the officers sometimes had quite fancy ones.)

 

 

How was the dagger drawn and held. Little finger to the hilt or thumb and first finger?

 

Ya know...I really don't know!! I always thought thumb and first finger, with the rest of the hand holding on with a lighter grip, if you know what I mean.

 

The roman legions were not all red, so how did they distinguish each other. The shield and helm plumage? or maybe the tunic? did naval legions have blue as a colour?

 

The officers were distinguished by their crests. The Optio wore a front to back crest, and the Centurion wore a side-to-side crest. Other officers had different crests, and different decorations.

 

The auxiliaries also wore different clothing and armor, as did some of the cavalrymen, etc.

 

Pertinax has great pictures of most of this stuff in his gallery.

[caldrail]

Firstly, how was the scutum shield attached to the arm was it with two leather straps but if the shield was curved would that have worked? My forearm doesn't bend that way. Or is it like (crude example) the original Empire Earth depicts and held only by one hand (i would think it was a bit to heavy for that)?

The standard curved square shield has a metal boss, behind which is a horizontal handle. The shield is certainly not a light item to cart around, and it therefore figures that the legionary was well practised in its use. The shield can be carried by the arm left hanging downward, but I'm not sure how much protection that offered.

 

Did the standard used by the signifier double up as a weapon?

Good lord no. It was a religious symbol, a display of the legions spirit. No signifer was going to break that in combat! But then... if you're carrying one and no other weapon to hand.... Soldiers are practical people.

 

How do you draw the gladius? I have read it was hanging on the right side from The Romans: Their Life and Customs, to stop it from bashing into the shield so I tried hanging a toy lightsabre (not one of my lifes most highest points : it is about 50cm long so i thought it would do) from my right hand side and drawing it but i found it difficult and awkward. Also to get it to face the right way I needed to do some kind of flick thing which would have killed the man next to me. So i assumed that maybe they just went into battle with them drawn then i realised about the pila needed to be thrown.

As described above, the sword is gripped by the right hand fist toward you and elbow high. It is actually very easy to draw a gladius like that, and considering the large curved shield in the other hand, the only way to pull it without clashing with the shield and getting into all sorts of trouble. The next man is safe, because the sword is 'flicked' in front of you. The gladius is a close quarters melee weapon and generally drawn when such combat is expected. Otherwise, as you correctly state, the pila are readied instead.

 

Were vambraces worn on the right arm by the wealthy in the second century bc or anytime for that matter? I suppose if they weren't a lot of forearm injuries were sustained when lunging?

No, but there were variants of roman armour in small numbers that protected the arm in that way. In fact, I doubt there were many such injuries anyway. A barbarian rushes at you screaming his nuts off. He swings his longer sword in beserk abandon and you take that blow on the large scutum - not too difficult. Then while he pulls the sword back for another swing, step in close, thrust, turn, pull away. Dead, dying, or in pain, it doesn't matter - the barbarian is down and your forearm never came close to getting lopped off. Thats the theory and in general it worked that way, but I guess soldiers did lose arms occaisionally. This wasn't a game after all - that guy wants to kill you.

 

Were greaves worn on both legs, the extending left leg or the unprotected right?

Centurions wore greaves as standard equipment, the ordinary rank and file did not., although there wasn't anything to stop them buying some lower qulaity item. They rarely did. After all the stoppages, bribes, gambling, sundry purchases, wine, women etc... I don't think armour was easily affordable by a man who only received pay every four months.

 

How was the dagger drawn and held. Little finger to the hilt or thumb and first finger?

This isn't recorded as far as I understand, but I doubt there was a standard grip given the pugio was a last-ditch weapon, a utility item. Most in the heat of combat would have held it securely in the fist and used it without much subtlety.

 

The roman legions were not all red, so how did they distinguish each other. The shield and helm plumage? or maybe the tunic? did naval legions have blue as a colour?

Modern research suggests the private soldier wore a white or off-white tunic. This isn't fully accepted however - some re-enactment groups wear different colours and its possible that some legions were issued dyed tunics of a particular colour. Red was generally reserved as a signal of higher rank. We think that centurions for instance always wore red tunics. Also, the quality of clothing increases with seniority. It might seem odd, but for thousands of years the cut of your cloth denoted how wealthy you were, and therefore a strong indication of importance. Centurions were also recognised by the sideways plume on their helmets. Contrary to hollywood depictions, ordinary soldiers did not have plumes on theirs, apart from certain troop types in earlier times like the triarii (denoted by three feathers rising from the helmet). It is believed that the roman navy wore blue tunics - a precedent for dyed tunics issued to troops for whatever reason.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

Firstly, how was the scutum shield attached to the arm was it with two leather straps but if the shield was curved would that have worked? My forearm doesn't bend that way. Or is it like (crude example) the original Empire Earth depicts and held only by one hand (i would think it was a bit to heavy for that)?

 

 

Horizontal lengths of hardwood, were glued and nailed to the back. These wood strips were 1/2 to 3/4 inches wide and about 1/4 inches thick. One of these strips formed the handgrip in the center of the shield. It was 3/4 inches wide and 1/4 thick for most of the length. In the middle (where the hand gripped) it was 3/4 inches thick, rounded and sanded or wrapped with leather. The handgrip could also be a steel strip about 1/8 inches thick. The shield probably had carrying-strap attachments.

The roman legions were not all red, so how did they distinguish each other. The shield and helm plumage? or maybe the tunic? did naval legions have blue as a colour?

 

Vegetius wrote, "Lest the soldiers in the confusion of battle should be separated from their comrades, every cohort had its shields painted in a manner peculiar to itself. (Vegetius, De Re Militari, Book II)" The most common 1st and 2nd century AD design for Legionary and Praetorian shields appears be the wing and lightening-bolt motif. The shape and orientation of these elements could change, minor accents (such as crescent or star shapes) could be added, but the symbolism would remain the same. In Roman mythology, the lightening-bolt and eagle represented the power of their supreme god, Jupiter. The wreath (symbolizing a crown of valor) was popular with the auxiliaries. In the Late empire simple geometric patterns were common.

[Pertinax]

We do have a major topic that touched on some of these questions previously, but in the welter of information I cannot presently find it!

Here is a shot I took a while ago as regards optimun gladius draw position:

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...=si&img=913

looks high doesnt it? However the draw is lightning quick from here.

[caldrail]

Did the standard used by the signifier double up as a weapon?

Good lord no. It was a religious symbol, a display of the legions spirit. No signifer was going to break that in combat! But then... if you're carrying one and no other weapon to hand.... Soldiers are practical people.

 

If Caesars troops gave ground he would often rally them in person, catching individual fugitives by the throat and forcing them round to face the enemy; even if they were panic stricken - as when one standard bearer threatened him with the sharp butt of his eagle and another, whom he tried to detain, who ran off leaving the eagle in his hand

Life of Caesar - Suetonius

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

Did the standard used by the signifier double up as a weapon?

Good lord no. It was a religious symbol, a display of the legions spirit. No signifer was going to break that in combat! But then... if you're carrying one and no other weapon to hand.... Soldiers are practical people.

 

If Caesars troops gave ground he would often rally them in person, catching individual fugitives by the throat and forcing them round to face the enemy; even if they were panic stricken - as when one standard bearer threatened him with the sharp butt of his eagle and another, whom he tried to detain, who ran off leaving the eagle in his hand

Life of Caesar - Suetonius

 

Wow, revelling! If the butt of the standard was sharp that implies it definitely could double up as a weapon, however i am now going to guess that they didn't train with them or want to use them because they were a religous symbol.

 

vtc

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

Wow, revelling! If the butt of the standard was sharp that implies it definitely could double up as a weapon, however i am now going to guess that they didn't train with them or want to use them because they were a religous symbol.

 

vtc

 

Like somebody mentioned earlier, When the s*** hits the fan and the battles almost lost and it's a matter of life or death, I'm pretty sure that the legionary would use anything he can get his hands on if it will help to prolong his life just that little bit longer, whether it be a rock, a big stick or god forbid the legionary standard.

 

Just a thought but maybe the butt of the standard was sharp in order to make it easier for the standard bearer to stab into the ground when stood sometimes for hours on end awaiting the battle to commence ?? Like I said just a thought.

[Lost_Warrior]

Like somebody mentioned earlier, When the s*** hits the fan and the battles almost lost and it's a matter of life or death, I'm pretty sure that the legionary would use anything he can get his hands on if it will help to prolong his life just that little bit longer, whether it be a rock, a big stick or god forbid the legionary standard.

 

Actually some standards I've seen had a small boss where they were held that acted as a (tiny) shield. Probably more to protect the signifer's hand than anything else.

 

Just a thought but maybe the butt of the standard was sharp in order to make it easier for the standard bearer to stab into the ground when stood sometimes for hours on end awaiting the battle to commence ?? Like I said just a thought.

 

I know that the standards were stuck in the ground at times, so it stands to reason that the end would be sharpened for that purpose. (Ever try to stick the round end of a broom handle in the ground? )

[Pertinax]

LW you were thinking of this perhaps?

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...si&img=1877

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

Indeed, anyway the question arose from the fact that signifier would not have the shield to block the huge long sword strokes so he may have needed the reach, or something like that, it made sense at the time.

 

vtc

[Lost_Warrior]

Something like that Pertinax. I've also seen one that had a horizontal "mini shield" attached. Where did they grip those ones? Right below the red fringe?