What Made Caligula Crazy?

[Klingan]

One thing always strikes me with these kind of threads and the general natter about the madness of Roman Emperors... it was pointed out a while back on a programme on the History Channel where the Emperors bath in water fed through lead pipes and we all know of the effect this would have today if one would do that regularly. Over several years the lead would poison the bodies system and brain and could very well lead to the kind of 'madness' reported in Caligula's time. Indeed for any one of the supposed mad Emperors this was suggested. Now before anyone jumps on this and says "What about the citizens? Why weren't they affected over time and it being noticed?". To that the answer would be the same - but who would notice it? Who would document it as such? Lead poisoning was not a twinkle of any Roman mind so no one would know anything. This theory is being looked at very strongly and could well give a very good reason for their demise and a lack of knowledge of it would certainly lend weight to this.

 

This will certainly open this thread out a lot more but please do not take it that I believe this. I have an open mind and when it was suggested and the story told it did make a hell of a lot of sense!

 

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Actually the led pipe theory is quite easy to dismiss, even if indeed does sound very good. First of all it's just the very last way that was through led pipes, secondly they were corroded very very fast by lime from the water. You would most likely find thick lime layer inside them. This happens to still today where you're not using modern water refinery or where you have your own well, when living on a place with lime in the bedrock, as Rome (And most of Europe).

[Octavia]

Hello everyone. I'm glad this thread is growing. As for the led pipe therry, it may have been it, but if that were the case, than why wasn't everyone in Rome insane or something? Maybe not, just my thought. As for my user name, it's claudia Octavia, after Claudius's daughter, but I wanted it to be Octavia or something. Got any ideas on how I can change that?

[M. Porcius Cato]

One thing always strikes me with these kind of threads and the general natter about the madness of Roman Emperors... it was pointed out a while back on a programme on the History Channel where the Emperors bath in water fed through lead pipes and we all know of the effect this would have today if one would do that regularly. Over several years the lead would poison the bodies system and brain and could very well lead to the kind of 'madness' reported in Caligula's time.

 

This is highly unlikely. Symptoms of lead poisoning include irritability, low appetite and energy, difficulty sleeping, headaches, reduced sensations, loss of previous developmental skills (in young children), anemia, constipation, abdominal pain and cramping (usually the first sign of a high, toxic dose of lead poison), and very high levels may cause vomiting, staggering gait, muscle weakness, seizures, or coma.

 

As far as I know, no medical research lists suborning spies, confiscating private property, forcing senators' wives into prostitution, raping dinner guests, and torturing political opponents as symptoms of lead poisoning.

[Nephele]

As for my user name, it's claudia Octavia, after Claudius's daughter, but I wanted it to be Octavia or something. Got any ideas on how I can change that?

 

Send a private message to Moonlapse. He can change screen names.

 

-- Nephele

[Octavia]

Thanks so much. I will do that. I'm new here and don't know my way around the board. How do you send a private message? As for Caligula,I think beingstruck by so much power probably took control of his mind.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

This must have some basis in fact. A wine barrel from Caligula's personal vineyards was found there. See here for source.

I checked the source and noticed for the first time that an invasion of Britain is not mentioned directly here, only an intent to invade some unnamed country. I read Suetonius about 22 years ago and now that I think of it I wonder what made me think it was Britain. I must have read that somewhere else and forgotten the source.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Gladius xx

[Octavia]

I do know that Claudius conquered Britain, but I don't know if Caligula ever attempted or not. You may have read about either Julius Caesar's attempt, or Claudius's conquest.

[ASCLEPIADES]

I do know that Claudius conquered Britain, but I don't know if Caligula ever attempted or not. You may have read about either Julius Caesar's attempt, or Claudius's conquest.

 

Salve, CO!

 

Once again, this comes from Suetonius' Life of Caligula:

 

19 Besides this, he devised a novel and unheard of kind of pageant; for he bridged the gap between Baiae and the mole at Puteoli ... many have supposed ... that it was to inspire fear in Germany and Britain, on which he had gardens, by the fame of some stupendous work.

 

43 He had but one experience with military affairs or war, and then on a sudden impulse; for having gone to Mevania to visit the river Clitumnus and its grove, he was reminded of the necessity of recruiting his body-guard of Batavians and was seized with the idea of an expedition to Germany...

 

44 ... All that he accomplished was to receive the surrender of Adminius, son of Cynobellinus king of the Britons, who had been banished by his father and had deserted to the Romans with a small force; yet as if the entire island had submitted to him, he sent a grandiloquent letter to Rome, commanding the couriers who carried it to ride in their post-chaise all the way to the Forum and the House, and not to deliver it to anyone except the consuls, in the temple of Mars the Avenger, before a full meeting of the senate.

[ASCLEPIADES]

One thing always strikes me with these kind of threads and the general natter about the madness of Roman Emperors... Over several years the lead would poison the bodies system and brain and could very well lead to the kind of 'madness' reported in Caligula's time.

This is highly unlikely...

As far as I know, no medical research lists suborning spies, confiscating private property, forcing senators' wives into prostitution, raping dinner guests, and torturing political opponents as symptoms of lead poisoning.

Salve, guys! Since a long time, lead poisoning has been frequently quoted as a contributor to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire (A SHORT LIST HERE), commonly with a lot of misinterpretations, not being the minor one the lack of an operative definition of "decline" or "fall".

I don't know of any medical research that lists social, economic, administrative and/or military collapse as symptoms of lead poisoning.

Edited July 25, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I do know that Claudius conquered Britain, but I don't know if Caligula ever attempted or not. You may have read about either Julius Caesar's attempt, or Claudius's conquest.

LOL. No. I am aware of both Caesar's expeditions and Claudius's conquest. No confusion there. I'm sure I read it somewhere else.

[Octavia]

No problem Gladius. Was only trying to help. I wasn't sure about Caligula going there, but I thought that maybe I read something about it.

[Augustus Caesar]

The lead poisoning issue isn't about it causing the downfall of the empire or anything like it. It was the GRADUAL decline in the state of health of those affected. When things like this happen, like the thelidomide drug, it is definitely gradual. It will be hardly noticable until it was virtually too late. Some of the decisions Caligula took MAY have been affected by this kind of influence. To dismiss this out of hand by saying things like the empire didn't fall or whatever is a bit silly. The level of poisoning does not ave to rerach a critical state before ones mind can be turned. What about those headaches someone mentioned above as a symptom? Well, he suffered them did he not? The thumping of the 'horses' in his head? Horses? Or just a thumping headache? Lead being the cause? Too much drink? Anything else?

 

It doesn't mean that everyone was affected either. Some cases of poisoning today still happen through our air venting systems and yet only a very few people are affected. The same goes here. I am not saying it DID happen or it DIDN'T happen. I am saying it is worth considering. This kind of madness we put onto Caligula is not even proven. The LEVEL of his outbursts are not proven. The fact that he was Emperor and tried it on with the Senate is known. Which Emperor didn't try it on with the Senate? Some cases of lead poisoning can and does to lead to gradual loss of cognitive powers and can lead to someone making rash choices. This may or may not have happened but one cannot dismiss it until it can be proven otherwise. I know a lot of facts say no way and on the other hand, if looked into properly, some facts point to it.

 

Anyway... at least it got you all talking about it. Thank you!

[caldrail]

Salve, guys and Ladies!

 

I have been always curious about why the reign of Gaius didn't end with any significant setback for the Empire. What do you think about it?

 

It got a bit dodgy in Rome though. According to the story Claudius hides in the palace, is found by looting praetorians who then realise they'd found a meal ticket again, and off to the barracks whilst the senate is convinced to let him rule. By the time the empire had heard caligula was dead, power in rome was back in the hands of an emperor. Notice that there weren't any provincial rebeliions or armies returning with an ambitious general at their head. Caligula may have upset a lot of influential people in the city but the plebs cheered him on - they were relatively unaffected by his activities. I don't read of caligula taking much interest in the empire as a whole, aside from being the benefactors of his piggy bank. Therefore the provinces had no axe to grind, caligula was seen there possibly as something of a non-entity or the son of our hero Germanicus, so the change in power caused no further upset. In the lack of an established method of passing on authority the senate gave in and allowed claudius to rule. Thats astonishing. Even allowing for roman exaggeration, claudius was not an ideal roman leader. Augustus was always embarrased by him after all, and claudiius suffered from a lot of verbal insults and mockery I'd guess. He probably did so after he was empowered, although by then the people with malicious words spoke them somewhat more quietly. I would say in the final analysis that the change of power, even with claudius at the helm, was welcome rather than a return to a civil war. It was probably just as well that claudius turned out to be fairly competent at running an empire even if his personal life was a fatal disaster.

 

Addendum - Concerning lead poisoning, this isn't the issue that some believe. It did happen of course. Excess lead can cause senility and Rome had its fair share of senile old men. Water pipes are probably not the cause, as a protective chemical layer forms on the inside of the pipe due to the interaction of chemicals involved. In any case, only the water along the pipe sides would carry any lead and the concetration would be vanishingly small. It has been theorised that lead cooking vessels are a primary cause of lead poisoning, and I would agree that the potential for poisoning from this source far exceeds water pipes. I think the poisoning issue needs to be seen in perspective because many of these emperors were bound to get a bit flakey. They live in a dangerous enviroment where anyone might be plotting their end. They get feted by the crowd, fawned over by courtiers, and need only snap their fingers for some unforunate town to be razed without question. Caligula may well have identified himself with Zeus. Nero did so with Apollo, Commodus with Hercules etc. powerful individuals sometimes do get very inflated ideas of their status as human beings - something I note that Augustus shied away from. Madness? No not really, just losing a sense of proportion. Also, these people get bored. There's little challenge when you can afford anything, get anything, and pretty well do anything. Nero took this to the limit, and his apparently mad excess really is nothing more than a wild rock'n'roll party lifestyle - something that ordinary romans couldn't understand nor experience for themselves. To blame roman 'madness' on a single source is a bit like choosing a scapegoat - there's lots of factors involved in roman behaviour, and the way common people behaved has nothing like the 'lunatic excess' we read of in wealthy powerful individuals. The actions of a few are colouring our opnions of the many, most of whom were trying to keep a roof over their heads and provide for their families.

Edited July 26, 2007 by caldrail

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, guys!

 

Lead poisoning has been tried to be linked with the decline and the fall of the Roman Empire for more than a century.

It is a very extensive topic that surely deserves its own thread.

Briefly, some of the most prominent flaws showed by many of these theories are:

 

- The lack of an operative definition for "decline" and/or "fall". What social or political phenomena are these theories trying to explain? Exactly where and when did they happen?

 

- An unrealistic appraisal of the clinical signs of saturnism. Vg, even if mild cognitive impairment is common, dementia (

[Octavia]

That's certainly true about Caligula's behavior. It was very ruthless. As for Tiberius and Caligula, it could be that they both saw what happened to their parents and family and became mad?