Carthage

[Rameses the Great]

I know I haven't been on here for a while with summer and what not some time ago I recall seeing articles on Greco-Carthaginian battles. I understand that the Carthaginian, other then the Punic Wars, are not really known for their military. I know in many instances Carthage and Greece fought over control of Sicily. The thing that surprises me however in that most of the battles the Greeks defeated the Carthaginians soundly in instances the Romans had trouble with them.

 

For example I remember the war sparked up in Sicily and the Carthaginians planned for a full scale war with the Greeks. They raised a substantial force, the largest in Carthaginian history, yet the Greeks just mobilized their troops to a much lesser extend yet defeated the Carthaginians subsequently winning the war. Anyone heard of this, or can reference me to it?

 

Also, I notice the Carthaginian army seems to be more Hellenistic rather then Middle Eastern. Was the idea of phalanx and mercenary use brought about by the Greeks or was this idea a Carthaginian practice? What was their army like this before the widespread culture of Hellenism mainly before Alexander the Great?

[Pantagathus]

The thing that surprises me however in that most of the battles the Greeks defeated the Carthaginians soundly in instances the Romans had trouble with them.

That of course is a major oversimplification. Except for the tyrant Gelon, the Greeks had their troubles with them too. I wonder what our impression of the Sicilian Wars would be if we had Punic sources to consult?

 

For example I remember the war sparked up in Sicily and the Carthaginians planned for a full scale war with the Greeks. They raised a substantial force, the largest in Carthaginian history, yet the Greeks just mobilized their troops to a much lesser extend yet defeated the Carthaginians subsequently winning the war. Anyone heard of this, or can reference me to it?

The big disaster you are thinking about here was the First Sicilian War in 480 BC. Gelon, tyrant of Gela & Syracuse wanted to unite all of Sicily and obviously the Carthaginians couldn

[Rameses the Great]

The big disaster you are thinking about here was the First Sicilian War in 480 BC. Gelon, tyrant of Gela & Syracuse wanted to unite all of Sicily and obviously the Carthaginians couldn

Edited July 9, 2007 by Rameses the Great

[Kosmo]

At times the Carthaginians pushed the Greeks to Syracuse and at times the Greeks pushed them off the island all together.

 

At no time the greeks ruled the entire island.

 

I would call it a stalemate but the question 'what if' the Greeks had more support from the mainland is a question that I guess can never be answered.

 

Pyrrhus brought good support, but he was not able to throw the carthaginians of the island.

 

Aghatocles was a real danger with his attack on Carthage herself. Syracusa was a great power for a greek city state, but inferior to Carthage. Keeping a stalemate against a much stronger foe was a remarkable feat. All decisive battles were won by greeks.

[Pantagathus]

Aghatocles was a real danger with his attack on Carthage herself. Syracusa was a great power for a greek city state, but inferior to Carthage. Keeping a stalemate against a much stronger foe was a remarkable feat. All decisive battles were won by greeks.

But Agathocles

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, guys! Do you know if there was any significant relation between Rome and any of both sides during these wars?

[Pantagathus]

Salve, guys! Do you know if there was any significant relation between Rome and any of both sides during these wars?

If by relation you mean military aid, then no, it wasn't until the Mamertines beseeched the Romans for aid against the Carthaginian garrison at Messana (that they had invited...) that Rome got directly involved with the power struggle for Sicily. This of course was the beginning of the first Punic War.

 

There was indeed a 'significant relation' if one considers the pre-Punic War treaties between Rome and Carthage that are discussed by Polybius 3.22-3.26. It seems clear from the treaty amended for reasons surrounding the Pyrrhic War that they were bound to the same side. The other two at least hint at the fact that they would stay out of each other's business in their respective sphere's of influence.

 

Here is a great (but old) article that sheds some light on Rome's lack of intervention in Sicily until the 1st Punic War: A Forgotten Treaty Between Rome and Carthage

[caldrail]

Also, I notice the Carthaginian army seems to be more Hellenistic rather then Middle Eastern. Was the idea of phalanx and mercenary use brought about by the Greeks or was this idea a Carthaginian practice? What was their army like this before the widespread culture of Hellenism mainly before Alexander the Great?

 

This was due to the use of local mercenaries, which inevitably comprised a large part of the carthaginian army in conflict. Before the hellenistic style became the norm, I'd expect many troops would have been less sophisticated tribal types.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve,P! Gratiam habeo. IOU one.