The aweful state of tuition in America

[The Augusta]

Just as a matter of interest, guys - what is the basic tax rate in the US these days? And is it a blanket rate or do you have a scale as we do, for higher earners etc? Sorry if we're off topic - Moon will no doubt split the thread if he deems it necessary.

http://taxes.about.com/od/2007taxes/qt/2007_tax_rates.htm

Your average middle class American pays about 25% just for Federal income tax, add onto that the various state income taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, capital gains taxes, miscellaneous other taxes and government fees. The total estimate is roughly 40%.

 

Thank you for that, Moon. It is as I thought. The US therefore pays more than the UK. Our average Brit pays 22% on a salary up to about

Edited July 7, 2007 by The Augusta

[Moonlapse]

Thank you for that, Moon. It is as I thought. The US therefore pays more than the UK. Our average Brit pays 22% on a salary up to about

[Nephele]

Hi, MPC. I've always thought of our U.S. universities as having state-of-the-art research facilities, too, and you've pointed out compelling evidence, in your earlier posting in this thread: "US university-based research generates more scientific publications and garners more Nobel prizes than any other nation by a very large margin."

 

As I mentioned briefly to you in PM (and, thanks again for the link to that NY Times article you sent!), it seemed to me that Harvard graduate Michael Crichton may have a differing opinion. I wish I knew for certain what Crichton thinks of our U.S. universities, but haven't been able to find any essays or speeches of his on that particular subject. The reason why I wonder, is because in his novel Jurassic Park, he has one of his characters speak dismissively of universities, comparing their research capabilities unfavorably to private laboratories. Of course, the character's motives are questionable and he is merely a character in a novel.

 

Nevertheless, I wondered whether Crichton might have been expressing his own views through his character's speech, as Ayn Rand and Robert Heinlein were noted for doing.

 

Here is the passage from Crichton's novel:

 

"Because let's face facts," Hammond said. "Universities are no longer the intellectual centers of the country. The very idea is preposterous. Universities are the backwater. Don't look so surprised. I'm not saying anything you don't know. Since World War II, all the really important discoveries have come out of private laboratories. The laser, the transistor, the polio vaccine, the microchip, the hologram, the personal computer, magnetic resonance imaging, CAT scans -- the list goes on and on. Universities simply aren't where it's happening any more. And they haven't been for forty years. If you want to do something important in computers or genetics, you don't go to a university. Dear me, no."

 

MPC, your opinion, please?

 

-- Nephele

[M. Porcius Cato]

MPC, your opinion, please?

 

Corporate-based labs are best at what they do, which differs from what university-based labs do.

 

The basic difference is that corporate-based labs typically prioritize patentable research over non-patentable research, whereas university-based labs typically prioritize basic research over non-basic research. Both are important, and they overlap in some areas, but each are associated with different skill sets, motivations, and outcomes.

 

For example, after working for three years on a project, a university-based researcher would be shamed for not publishing any results (and he probably wouldn't get his contract renewed), whereas a corporate-based researcher could suffer similar penalties for publishing his results--since the results of his work belong to his employer as proprietary information.

 

Notice that Crichton's examples--"The laser, the transistor, the polio vaccine, the microchip, the hologram, the personal computer, magnetic resonance imaging, CAT scans"--are all applications of basic research that were published for the education of all by university-based researchers. For example, the laser was an application of basic research in quantum electrodynamics (QED) done by Richard Feynman at Cal Tech (tuition: over $20,000/year), a job Feynman took over Einstein's home at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton (because he'd have no chance to teach at Princeton, but he could at Cal Tech). Feynman later received the Nobel Prize for this work (in 1965), but since it was basic research, it was not patentable. In fact, Feynman didn't even hold a copyright to his articles on QED!

 

I certainly don't want to give the impression that corporate-based research is unimportant, but it is important for very different reasons, and it can be (and should be!) supported by private investors hoping to maximize their profits. University-based research tends to be very risky, and it is almost never interested in narrow applications.

 

(I say "almost never" because DoD-funded research is done by both university and non-university based labs, and the DoD has an amazing ability to find and fund promising basic research with clear applications. Corporate foundations--like Intel--play a similar role in promoting basic research at the university level.)

[Moonlapse]

As a side note to MPC's last post, not only technological but also behavioral research is used in this way. G. Stanley Hall and John Dewey sprang from the earliest research universities in the United States. Practically everything you experience now is a result of more than a century of this research, designed to influence and/or make practical use of your behavior, especially in marketing and in every stage of education.

[docoflove1974]

Not to mention that the research mentioned above is all scientific in nature...and says nothing of the social sciences, humanities, education, or others. The archaeological research performed in the world is predominantly by academic institutions; same with psychological and medical research--not just drugs, but other treatments, and their effects on patients. And while much of the engineering marvels do come out of the private sector, they mostly come from ideas generated in the university!

 

The university I went to for my BA and MA is a major research university, in fields as vast as electrical engineering, agricultural engineering, viticulture and oenology, medicine, veterinary medicine, political science, history, archeology, botany, linguistics, cognitive sciences...the list is very long. Because it's a public university, the tuition for residents is not that bad--about $12k/year for everything--and it's quite reasonable. The university I have received my doctorate from is about the same, another public, major research university in Texas. The costs at public universities are much more reasonable than a private one (naturally), but it's still affordable for middle class.

 

Another side to this: the vast majority of private universities in the US have numerous grants and scholarships, so that the cost of a private education is not necessarily out of reach for a middle class (or lower) student. Granted, the student usually has to maintain a average-to-high Grade Point Average, but that's nothing new.

 

As for working...I worked 10-15 hrs/week in an office job during the year when I was working on my BA (1993-1997), while also carrying 15-18 units (4-5 courses). I graduated with honors. It can be done! And I still hung out with my friends and did much of what is typical of any college kid. During the summers I made enough money to pay for much of my expenses during the year, and didn't take summer school. My brothers both did much the same thing, and still maintained good GPAs. Then again, we're not exactly strangers to hard work and organization.

 

The only reason I'm carrying as much student loan debt as I do is because I got into trouble with credit cards--I tried to keep up with my friends, and forgot that their parents paid for their credit card bills, and mine didn't. Otherwise, I wouldn't have taken out much money, if any at all. Both of my brothers went through college without debt.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

I must say that I smile reading some posts by our American friends especially when some of you say the research labs of US universities are better than those found in "Old Europe"'s ones. American seems to think that in order for something to be good it has to be big and cost a lot of money : be it the Hummer car of the JSF plane, they cost two to four time what any vehicle designed in the world cost and are twice as big, using twice as much fuel to go at the same speed and the same distance as a British Land Rover car or a French Rafale plane. Even at more basic level the Europeans scientists make as much discoveries as their American counterparts with less computer power, less material and much smaller budgets. Yet the US do not have anything that can compare to the latest CERN particle accelerator, have much less success with NASA than the Europeans with the Ariane space rockets program, and if the Europeans publish less they usually publish bigger papers and do not segment their publication in numerous small articles. This is due to differences in the teaching methods between the two continents and both systems have their advantages but finally they are as much Europeans universities in the world's top 50 of the best universities than American one's.

 

For example the budget of my university ( ULB, some 20 000 students ) is about one quarter to one half of the budget of the smaller ( 15 000 students ) Georgetown university in Washington DC ( and I dare not speak of the budget of Harvard, which is of a similar size to the ULB ) and yet we are recognized as a very good research center, leader in some reals of physics and electronics as well as in cancerology and medical machines design. Thus if the quality of the education given and of the research produced is the same for a lesser cost and with a much better accessibility for poorer peoples then I think the European model is probably a better system which could produce much more knowledge if it had the same money poured into it as has the US model.

[Moonlapse]

The research universities in the U.S. typically are German model (Humboldtian) universities. I don't think the differences are necessarily in the model.

[Ursus]

With the average tuition for overseas students in UK universities being a total of

[Moonlapse]

Haha, I can't argue with that.

[M. Porcius Cato]

they are as much Europeans universities in the world's top 50 of the best universities than American one's.

 

No. Not even close. Here's a ranking with explicit methodology (from a Chinese university website). Of the top 20 universities in the world, 17 are in the US and 2 are in Europe. Of the top 50, 37 are in the US and 9 are in Europe.

 

Maybe the Chinese are too pro-American? (hehe--that would be a first) Try a UK ranking (Times Higher Education Supplement). Of the top 20, 11 are in the US and 5 are in Europe. Of the top 50, 22 are in the US and 11 are in Europe.

 

Is there another list you'd like to nominate?

[Divi Filius]

Wow, since I opened it the topic has went through so many shifts and turns... I dont know where to reply...

[Viggen]

MPC, those lists are difficult to evaluate, first of all those as it seems are made for english speaking audience, so it always favors english speaking universities. Second those list dont really tell how exactly the evaluation took place...

 

Another thing is what does it mean best university? So Harvard is apparently Nr.1, would i go and study there Mining Sciences because of this ranking?

Nope i dont think so, but one of the worlds best in this field is in Austria in a little town no one ever has probably heard in the english speaking world (other then people that are heavy into that) and would be for that a much better choice...

 

btw. just happend i visit my uncle yesterday and heard that my cousin (who is the ultimate freak) who studies physics in austria decided to go to St.Petersburg (Russia) to make his Phd there. (he mentioned Hydromagnetic, Atmosphere plasma beams from the sun and how it effects spaceships, climate earth in general, but i eventually got lost with all this strange words

 

When i asked why St.Petersburg, his simple answer was, they are leading in this field and by so far that he had no choice if he wants to proceed in this field, he even learned russian so he can qualify...

 

cheers

viggen

[Moonlapse]

I see some misunderstanding here. MPC is saying that 'US university-based research generates more scientific publications and garners more Nobel prizes than any other nation by a very large margin,' not that 'the research labs of US universities are better.' One is an easily verified fact, the other is a subjective opinion. Let's not turn this into a 'no, you're not better than us' discussion. 'Better' and 'best' were not even uttered. MPCs rankings post is a response to the unreferenced claim made by Bryaxis Hecatee about the 'best' universities. If you want to dispute some of the information referenced here, use referenced information to do it.

[Viggen]

welll Moon according to wikipedia it is not all so dominating...

 

out of the 10 Top Universities 6 are from the USA and 4 from Europe, i hardly call that by a very large margin...

 

cheers

viggen