The aweful state of tuition in America

[Moonlapse]

All European universities are not in the same nation. Anyways, it's not my argument so I'm butting out, I just thought I should point out a misunderstanding as I see it.

[Viggen]

well not all US universites are from the same state either

 

cheers

viggen

[Moonlapse]

The word 'nation' was used in the statement.

[Ludovicus]

 

 

A debt of 80,000 seems ridiculous for a person who has yet to even take on the world.

 

This is the crux of Divi Filius's complaint.

 

From the Huffington Post:

"Just a generation ago, a federal Pell Grant covered nearly three-quarters of tuition; today, a grant covers only one-third. With the cuts in student aid, private dollars now make up the majority of higher education funding for the first time in American history. In just the past decade, average debt loads have doubled. And almost no one is immune: nearly half of students from six-figure-earning families now go into debt just to go to college. Educational debt is now shaping graduates' career choices in disturbing ways."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-brook...ca_b_51950.html

[M. Porcius Cato]

A debt of 80,000 seems ridiculous for a person who has yet to even take on the world.

This is the crux of Divi Filius's complaint.

 

80,000 is for a top university--not the norm by any stretch of the imagination. Even still, I'm happy to concede that all colleges are expensive, with one year in school being about the price of a new automobile (and yes--some schools are Hummers, some are Fiats). But is this price too high? I don't think so. A college education may cost as much as 4 cars, but it's VASTLY more valuable than 4 cars. Looking only at the cost makes no sense--you have to look at the cost relative to the value compared to the cost/benefit ratio of other goods. From a rational perspective, college is the most valuable purchase most people make in their entire lives. In my view, tuition should be RAISED very considerably so that the money can be invested to expand access to more top students from around the world.

 

With respect to Viggen's look at the top 10 Nobel schools--the six American universities produced 412 Nobel laureates, the four European universities produced 240. Thus, my original claim that American universities produce more Nobel laureates than any other nation remains valid. For those who don't see the relevance here, the issue is whether the higher cost of universities in the US vs Europe is justified. My claim is that the opportunity to work in a Nobel-laureate lab is utterly priceless, and even more of a bargain given the relatively small price difference for studying abroad at tax-supported universities.

 

Of course, the real proof that American universities are worth the cost is that there is absolutely no shortage of applicants. Harvard turns away so many applicants that if they wanted to declare 2008 the Year of the Tuba Player, they could fill all the spots with nothing but tuba players and still have a freshman class with perfect SATs!

[docoflove1974]

I don't think there's a question that American (research) universities are among the best in the world (note that I didn't say that they were the best, just among the best). But this doesn't count in the fact that the vast majority of the 4-year universities in the US are not major research universities, but are liberal arts and specialized universities. There are so many factors when choosing a college (let alone a graduate school), that price is not always the first element of the decision. Not to mention that many of these division I-AA and II school offer a great education for less money than the research universities (both public and private) often do.

 

Yes, Pell Grants have shrunken. But as I recall, it's not exactly easy to qualify for a Pell Grant; I recall that my brothers and I didn't qualify, because my parents made too much money...yet we were solidly in the middle-class realm! Makes me wonder if the qualifications have also changed over the years.

 

Another cost-cutting measure: many students go to 2-year "community colleges" to do their lower division coursework before transferring to a 4-year university. This move alone can cut over 1/2 of the cost of college, if not more, because the tuition is lower and the student often lives at home.

 

Therefore, it is quite possible to obtain a 4-year degree for well under the $80k pricetag mentioned earlier. Now it's up to the student to not go into credit card debt, which is almost as common as student loan debt!

[Kosmo]

I paid for each year around 150 $. Now it's much more expansive, around 500 Euro. Not only that it is cheap but it is generally easy to go thru as well.

But i still think that tutition it's too expansive in the US. What conditions they provide for someone who studies law or other theorethical studies to ask for that amount of money? All you need it's good teachers and a decent library.

If someones studies nuclear phisics, sure, laboratory expanses are high but why does a history student pay for the reactor in the science lab.

What advantage it's for a student to have a teacher that has a Nobel prize and who makes some research with a handfull of students in the project, a theoretical research that will bring money to some private companies that convert it to useful technolgies?

I see this as a case of branding. You get the same product as in a cheaper place, but you can show off with it. And this brand might by very important when you look for a job.

 

So, go to Oxbridge if you can. It's cheaper and it has a great brand... and you are much closer to a lot of roman stuff.

 

I fully agree with Ursus on the purposes of higher education, especially his last point.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Of course, the real proof that American universities are worth the cost is that there is absolutely no shortage of applicants. Harvard turns away so many applicants that if they wanted to declare 2008 the Year of the Tuba Player, they could fill all the spots with nothing but tuba players and still have a freshman class with perfect SATs!

Amen.

[M. Porcius Cato]

But i still think that tutition it's too expansive in the US. What conditions they provide for someone who studies law or other theorethical studies to ask for that amount of money? All you need it's good teachers and a decent library.

 

OK, take the example of law school if you'd like (although the principle applies to any professional degree).

 

First, in hiring law professors, American universities compete with law firms for talent. Given a choice between making partner and making tenure, a young person with a law degree will not look favorably on a large salary cut for choosing to teach. Thus, law professor salaries are typically very high.

 

Second, the cost of a good isn't the cost of producing the good. If it costs me $1 to make a widget, and you can use the widget to make $100, I'll charge you as close to $100 as I can (if I even sell it to you at all). Given the high salaries of American lawyers, potential lawyers in the US are willing to pay a very high price to go to law school.

 

"All you need is good teachers" wrongly implies that good teachers are in ample supply and willing to forego the opportunities of practicing their valuable knowledge (and, by creating competitors, diminish the market value of their knowledge) for a low price. Of course, the world isn't filled with selfless lawyers (ha!), so you better bet that law school is going to cost you an arm and a leg.

[Divi Filius]

Or Canada. If you're in NY, you're not far from Canda. With the exchange rate what it is, you could save a lot of money and still get a decent education. And from what I hear the legal drinking age in most provinces is 18, not 21! It's an increasing trend for students in border states.

 

I would pay about the same amount. Toronto U's international fee is about 20,000 dollars.

Edited July 12, 2007 by Divi Filius

[Divi Filius]

welll Moon according to wikipedia it is not all so dominating...

 

out of the 10 Top Universities 6 are from the USA and 4 from Europe, i hardly call that by a very large margin...

 

cheers

viggen

 

I dont think we should just look at the Top 10, not all students are going to rush for that. Look at a Top 100 list and youll see just how far that margin widens. At the same time, American universities with ranks from all over the world: history departments dominated by UK professors or those from the rest of the EU; same with many other departments. Nevertheless, I still think that for Cambridge and Berkley to have such a huge price difference while being right next to each other in quality means something bad for the latter.

[Viggen]

Interesting piece of data

http://users.fmg.uva.nl/lleydesdorff/us_science/index.htm

 

cheers

viggen

[Kosmo]

But i still think that tutition it's too expansive in the US. What conditions they provide for someone who studies law or other theorethical studies to ask for that amount of money? All you need it's good teachers and a decent library.

 

OK, take the example of law school if you'd like (although the principle applies to any professional degree).

 

First, in hiring law professors, American universities compete with law firms for talent. Given a choice between making partner and making tenure, a young person with a law degree will not look favorably on a large salary cut for choosing to teach. Thus, law professor salaries are typically very high.

 

I don't now how it's done in US universities, but here law teachers are not top lawyers. They are people that have went with the diferent stages of univarsitary curriculum, write books about the theory of law, they have PhD's and they are, sometimes, lawyers, but this comes easy because of the name they make as teachers. So, it's not a good lawyer that becames a teacher, but a good teacher that uses his fame to make money as a lawyer.

 

 

Second, the cost of a good isn't the cost of producing the good. If it costs me $1 to make a widget, and you can use the widget to make $100, I'll charge you as close to $100 as I can (if I even sell it to you at all). Given the high salaries of American lawyers, potential lawyers in the US are willing to pay a very high price to go to law school.

 

 

If you're talking about a famous brand like "Harvard", it's true, because you can rise the price as you have monoply. If you are talking about the product "law school" it's untrue because the competion on the market will drop the price.

 

"All you need is good teachers" wrongly implies that good teachers are in ample supply and willing to forego the opportunities of practicing their valuable knowledge (and, by creating competitors, diminish the market value of their knowledge) for a low price. Of course, the world isn't filled with selfless lawyers (ha!), so you better bet that law school is going to cost you an arm and a leg.

 

Again, I disagree with law teachers being lawyers. Good teachers are often made by the university by picking good students and growing them.

[docoflove1974]

I don't now how it's done in US universities, but here law teachers are not top lawyers. They are people that have went with the diferent stages of univarsitary curriculum, write books about the theory of law, they have PhD's and they are, sometimes, lawyers, but this comes easy because of the name they make as teachers. So, it's not a good lawyer that becames a teacher, but a good teacher that uses his fame to make money as a lawyer.

 

Usually law professors are those who were lawyers already (and usually teach not just beginning law classes, but ones in their specific area of specialty), and are 'giving back' to the education system. Some have PhD's, but not always, as it's not really necessary. A law degree is a Juris Doctorate, so they are already qualified to teach at a university as a professor. As for using their fame to become a lawyer, that couldn't be more backwards of the system here. Lawyers here make all of their money and fame in the legal profession, and give up all of that to be professors. The only time that they get 'recognition' is if asked by some news company to be a consultant, which is done for additional money. Other consulting work also supplements the money that they 'give up' by leaving the law practice and going to the university.

 

Law school is like medical school: you don't *have* to go to one in order to become a lawyer (or a doctor), as all you have to do is pass an exam. However, the better the law (or medical) school, the better the preparation for these exams and the job in general, and the better connections you make so that you can get a better job. So the best law schools in the country (Harvard only being one; UCLA, Stanford and Boalt (UC Berkeley) being almost as high) do matter. Furthermore, in the US each state has their own 'bar' exam, which needs to be passed in order to practice law in that state. California and New York have the hardest bars to pass; Texas is right behind them. The better the law school, the better it'll prepare you to pass the bar in that, or in any other, state.

Edited July 13, 2007 by docoflove1974

[M. Porcius Cato]

Again, I disagree with law teachers being lawyers. Good teachers are often made by the university by picking good students and growing them.

 

You're missing the point entirely--it's not that law professors are simply hired away from top law firms, it's that law schools compete with law firms for the same talent pool. Thus, good students have a CHOICE about whether to take the academic or non-academic route, and if the rewards of the non-academic route are much inferior, smart students will choose the non-academic route (a situation that would be completely unacceptable to academics). Universities do not "make" law professors by "growing them" like crops. Crops have no choices--law students do!

 

The bottom line is that if US lawyers earn more than non-US lawyers (and on average they do), this discrepancy could explain the cost of US law schools compared to non-US law schools. Mine is an empirical claim, and it would be easy to test. If you have another hypothesis for why US law schools are more expensive, what evidence would disconfirm your hypothesis?