Pronounciation help

[miguel]

I've found the 'Aeneid' article on Wikipedia. "IPA English pronunciation: [əˈniːɪd]; in Latin 'Aeneis', pronounced [aɪˈne.ɪs] " AE should be pronounced AI, should it not?

 

I also had an argument with a lecturer when I pronounced the word 'Velites' as 'Vee-lights'. The lecturer said 'Vell- it- es', to which I replied shouldn't it be 'Well-it-es(s)'? Although I was right, in hindsiight I believe that it's not a good idea to wind-up your lecturer!!

 

Perhaps you can tell your lecturer after the lecture.

 

My biology teacher always makes the Latin words sound very English. For example, I suppose 'vertebrae' (plural form of 'vertebra') pronounced 'wer-te-brai', but she insists on saying 'ver-te-bri'. Similar case as for 'chordae terdineae'. I wonder should I say those words in Latin or English pronounciation. One more question, if anyone knows, how to pronounce the word 'oesophagus'? The OE is very confusing.

[Andrew Dalby]

I've found the 'Aeneid' article on Wikipedia. "IPA English pronunciation: [əˈniːɪd]; in Latin 'Aeneis', pronounced [aɪˈne.ɪs] " AE should be pronounced AI, should it not?

In Latin, yes, it should probably be [ai]; but at this distance in time we can hardly claim to distinguish whether the Romans said [ai] or [aɪ] -- there's not that much difference anyway -- so the Wikipedia article is not really wrong, I'd say.

... Perhaps you can tell your lecturer after the lecture.

Much safer, I agree!

My biology teacher always makes the Latin words sound very English. For example, I suppose 'vertebrae' (plural form of 'vertebra') pronounced 'wer-te-brai', but she insists on saying 'ver-te-bri'. Similar case as for 'chordae terdineae'. I wonder should I say those words in Latin or English pronounciation. One more question, if anyone knows, how to pronounce the word 'oesophagus'? The OE is very confusing.

It's your choice! Just as a personal view, I would say that it may sound fussy to pronounce scientific words the Latin way when you're speaking English. In this case, very much like your biology teacher, I would say VER-tuh-bri if I'm speaking English. For oesophagus I say ee-SO-fa-gus. And, before anyone asks, for Boeotia I say be-OH-sha.

[Andrew Dalby]

I've searched and searched but I only see the name Aeneis in german, dutch or holland sites, but in texts written in latin I see all the time Aeneida( maybe the declination or something??)

Anyway, I'll suppose what you say because you're the expert

Sorry I didn't reply to this before. I certainly don't claim to be always right! YOU are right that the form Aeneida can exist in Latin. Here's why. Aeneis is a Latin word (and the title of a Latin poem) but it has a Greek look. In literary Latin you have the choice of declining it more like a Greek word, or more like a Latin one. Therefore, the accusative singular can be Aeneida (Greek form) or Aeneidem (Latin form).

 

However, the base form, the nominative singular, is Aeneis, and that's really what I was talking about. If you are referring to the title -- putting quotes round it, so to speak -- you will usually use the nominative, so you will want to call the book Aeneis.

[Traianus]

Excellent explanation Andrew, thanks

Edited June 10, 2007 by Traianus

[metrodorus]

You can hear Robert Sonkowsky reading the first part of the text you have on the Latinum Podcast.

There is also a specially edited version, with pauses inserted after each phrase, for the first few verses, so that you can get the hang of the meter.

[ASCLEPIADES]

The contributions to this thread are incredibly interesting for a number of reasons.

Latin may not be a dead language, but Classical Latin is a dead as classical Sanskrit. The problem of all dead languages is that there is no way to know for sure its phonetics. In my university there were no less than three options: the "Italian way", the "French way" and the "Spanish way". It is very possible that all 3 are wrong. I prefer the Italian one, but only because of its taste.

[metrodorus]

The contributions to this thread are incredibly interesting for a number of reasons.

Latin may not be a dead language, but Classical Latin is a dead as classical Sanskrit. The problem of all dead languages is that there is no way to know for sure its phonetics. In my university there were no less than three options: the "Italian way", the "French way" and the "Spanish way". It is very possible that all 3 are wrong. I prefer the Italian one, but only because of its taste.

Asclepiades,

 

Although we may never know "for sure" the phonetics of Classical Latin, we have a pretty solid scholarly consensus regarding the matter. When it comes to actually utilising that information, though, to speak Latin, very few Classical scholars have put the time and effort into trying to speak Latin as they know it should have been spoken during, say, the time of the late Republic.

 

For example, regarding the AE phoneme, we know that in the early republic, it was pronounced as a full dipthong, "AI", and that after the republic, this became closer to simply a long "e".......KAISAR versus KEESAR.

 

We also know that in earlier times, the C was always a hard sound, as did the Greeks, later it altered according to its environment.

 

The amount of information we have to draw on for reconstructing the pronunciation of Latin is very large - and there is broad academic consensus as to how it ought to be pronounced . Where does the evidence come from? Latin words were transliterated into Greek, and also into Hebrew, with the words appearing in those languages as they sounded. We also have Latin rhyming verse from the 300's, and as we know it was supposed to rhyme, we can tell how all the final syllables were pronounced. Then there is the matter of the textual statements of the various Roman grammarians, who wrote extensively about how their language was pronounced. Finally, we have the large body of epigraphical evidence - the mis-spellings, the elisions - words written down as they sounded, not as they were 'spelled' ( to our way of thinking about it), which instruct us as to how the words were pronounced.

 

However, theory and practical application of theory are two different creatures, as I am discovering with my Latinum podcast. There are very few academics who are comfortable enough with the consistent accuracy of their Restored Pronunciation Latin, to want to record it for public exposure. I think this is because the focus in Academic circles, with the exception of a tiny minority of academics, has not been on vocalising the language. With my recordings on the Latinum podcast, I have my own recordings peer reviewed - and then I re-record the episode, until I am reasonably happy with it. However, even these are imperfect.

 

There are great rewards to getting it as 'right' as possible, as the Latin comes alive. The difficulties are compounded by the rules for accenting not being the same as the rules for syllable strength, (which applies in poetry and versification.) If you first encounter a word in a poem, the chances are that you'll not have encountered it used with its natural accent, and you'd in all liklihood mispronounce if you were to use it in speech.

 

Many people mix these up, ( I am still guilty of it from time to time) and use the vowel quantities when speaking, when they should be using the accents. To confuse matters even more, dictionaries usually only give the quantity, but not the accent. The rules for accenting spoken Latin are given by G.J. Adler on page 6 of "A Practical Grammar for Speaking and Writing Latin", where he says "correct pronunciation....is the very soul of living discourse".

 

Evan.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, M (aka Evan)! Thank you for your kind and extensive explanation; it's going to be extremely useful for me.

I think that the contribution of classical poetry to Latin phonetic reconstruction would be far greater than that of the prose, as you may have a reasonable idea of its rhyming rules.

Edited July 15, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES

[Traianus]

In my university there were no less than three options: the "Italian way", the "French way" and the "Spanish way".

 

hehehe, It would be funny hear a french reading in latin with their prononciation, due to that latin is a very diptongal and triptongal language and french tend to simplify three or two vowel in one only sound, also the "r" of french which is told from the throat, and more and more things that make french to sound as particular as it sounds

[docoflove1974]

In my university there were no less than three options: the "Italian way", the "French way" and the "Spanish way".

 

hehehe, It would be funny hear a french reading in latin with their prononciation, due to that latin is a very diptongal and triptongal language and french tend to simplify three or two vowel in one only sound, also the "r" of french which is told from the throat, and more and more things that make french to sound as particular as it sounds

 

It's quite a scene, I tell you...I have a French friend who, when she tries to say Latin words with as 'correct' a pronunciation as she can, just muddles things. French phonetics are perhaps the most innovative of all the Romance languages, with the vowel fronting and decided loss of pronunciation in many word-final environments. She usually gives up, sighs, and mimics a more English-inspired pronunciation.

 

By the by...I would imagine that the Portuguese-inspired pronunciation would be quite interesting...quite a few nasalized vowels!

[Divi Filius]

This is something that has bewildered me for a while now. My book say "ai" as in "aisle".

 

Also, what about "r", my book says that you have to touch the top of your mouth with your tongue to pronounce it right and the result would be "like pearl in a Scottish accent."

Edited July 31, 2007 by Divi Filius

[docoflove1974]

It is most often argued that it is indeed an 'alveolar tap/flap'...and since this continues in the Romance languages, it's probably true.

 

If you touch your tongue against the back of your teeth, and then continue back, there's a 'bump' right behind your teeth; that's your alveolar ridge. It's a common articulation point in human languages. So the 'r' sound of the Romance languages is a 'tap', a quick hit, on that ridge. In American English, this sound is associated with the [t/d] sounds in 'butter, ladder', as used in fast speech.