Why Romans Didn't Charge

[roman wargamer]

then without poiting fingers, let us do some possible scenario of the Battle of Philippi.

 

"let us be clear that it is only threoritical scenario:" rw

 

it is to simple, it show's the tactical and strategic genius of Octavian who later become emperor, who learn from Caesar.

 

Anthony who win the first battle against Cassius later lost to Brutus who commanded a combine army.why?

first a winner then a loser. if only Anthony attacked with Octavian men, surely they have more number of men to use.

 

and while the triumvir's army of Octavian was pushed back to total retreat on the first battle.

how come the triumvir's army who was first defeated earlier by Brutus,

 

later on the second battle, and the triumvir's army now under the direct command of Octavian,

defeated and totally annihilated the combine army of Cassius under Brutus, who have have superior number of men.

 

this case scenario i like to digest to study how battle can be won with inferior number of men,

by good tactical formation from the beginning, then the perfect and snychronized strategic movement of forces.

 

the frontal attacked in the center of the enemy battle line, it is done by Octavian army,

 

who was percieved by Brutus as weak.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 1

 

Brutus on top of the monitor

let us presuppose Brutus have 10 Roman legio and 4 Allies legio.

 

before the battle begin each army"s formation

 

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.aaa.bbb.111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.ccc.ddd.

 

 

.......111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

.......111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

.......111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

 

 

...against Octavian 12 Roman Legio

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 2

 

Brutus have 10 Roman legio and 4 Allies legio

 

as the battle engagement begin and the battle line meet

Brutus notice they have longer battle line agmen

 

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.111.111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111

.......111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

.............222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.

 

while the triumvir army"s veteran officer notice it lately and immediately corrected it

by using the second agmen battle line of their both flanks, left and right to be extended, to equal the line.

 

...against Octavian 12 Roman Legio

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figure 3

 

Brutus notice they have longer battle line agmen

 

as the battle develop Brutus simple out manuever the triumvir"s army by making a bold flanking attack

 

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.......aaa.aaa.bbb.111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.ccc.ddd.ddd,ddd

.aaa.111.111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111

.............111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

...................222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.

 

while the triumvir army"s veteran officer notice it lately and immediately done correctived counter measure.

 

but the the left west legio and right east legio send and relay message,

if the whole battle line agmen will not do a retreat, their sides will be out flanks later.

and the army"s defense could colapse.

 

________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 4

 

"Brutus, though, had nearly equal success against Octavian and pushed his lines back.

 

as the battle develop Brutus simple out manuever the triumvir's army by making a bold flanking attack

unluckily for Brutus, when the triumvir"s army are making their rotational retreat of the whole battle line agmen,

they did not send the cavalry to do some havoc on the rear to confused the enemy or maybe break their defense.

 

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........aaa.aaa.bbb.111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000ccc.

.aaa.======================================ddd.ddd,ddd

.......111.111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111

.............111.222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.

...................222.000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.

 

tasking all the antepilanus men of all the Hastatus manipular acies to bear the defensores counter measure.

while the triumvir army's veteran officer made a perfect withdrawal, their experience pay's off.

 

but the the left west legio and right east legio send and relay message,

if the whole battle line agmen will not do a retreat, their sides will be out flanks later.

________________________________________________________________________________________

 

"Brutus, though, had nearly equal success against Octavian and pushed his lines back.

Octavian was forced to flee his camp, taking refuge in a nearby marsh."

 

But Brutus did not inflict any decisive damage to the Ocatavian's army,

because the triumvir army's veteran officer made a perfect and very early withdrawal.

except to all the Hastatus antepilanus men who do the defensores formation for the whole army.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

 

why did Anthony lost to Brutus?

 

as i said it is purely theoritical, how it happen base on known facts and statistic.

[caldrail]

why did Anthony lost to Brutus?

 

Beats the heck outta me....

[roman wargamer]

"Brutus managed to regroup and take command of Cassius' remaining army."

qoute from unrv, Battle of Philippi

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Cassius remaining army are 6 Roman Legio

 

111.222.333.444.555.666.

111.222.333.444.555.666.

111.222.333.444.555.666.

 

Brutus army are 10 Roman Legio and 4 Allies legio

 

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111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd.

111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

or a total of 16 Roman Legio and 4 Allies legio

111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.111.222.333.444.555.666.aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd.

111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.111.222.333.444.555.666.aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd.

111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.111.222.333.444.555.666.aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd.

 

 

against the 14 Roman Legio of Anthony

 

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111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.111.222.333.444

111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.111.222.333.444

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Battle of Philippi, Third Battle Engagement between the Republican and the Triumvir's army

 

and First Battle between Anthony and Brutus.

 

Brutus army 16 Roman Legio and 4 Allies legio

the wary and cautious Brutus keep his advantage as a full reserved to counter any Anthony's battle plan.

 

figure 1

 

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.111.222.333..................................................444.555.666.

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000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.333.444.

000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.333.444.

000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.333.444.

 

against the 14 Roman Legio of Anthony

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 2

 

"Antony assuredly reveled in his own [first] victory"[over Cassius] made a hastily direct attack against Brutus.

 

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000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.333.444.

000.999.888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.333.444.

............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

 

and immediately crush the front liner of the Allies legio.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 3

 

"Antony assuredly reveled in his own [first] victory"[over Cassius]

 

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.111.222.333..................................................444.555.666.

.111.222.333..................................................444.555.666.

.000.999.111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.333.444.

.000.999.111.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.000.333.444.

.000.999.888.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.222.333.444.

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

....................777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.

 

continue the direct frontal attack of the whole battle line agmen,

and totally crushing the 4 Allies legio and destroying part of Brutus west legio and east legio.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 4

 

"Antony assuredly reveled in his own victory but Brutus held his ground and delayed Antony's triumph."

 

at the critical moment, Brutus commited all his rear legio on reserve to counter attacked.

and the tired first agmen of Anthony succumb to the fresh onslaught of the enemy.

 

 

..............333..................................................444.

.111.222.333..................................................444.555.666.

.111.222.333..................................................444.555.666.

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..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

....................777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

figure 5

 

at the critical moment, Brutus commited all his rear legio on reserve to counter attacked.

and the tired first agmen of Anthony succumb to the fresh onslaught of the enemy.

 

 

 

..............333...................................................444.

.111.222.333...................................................444.555.666.

.111.222.333.222.333.444.555.666.777.888.999.444.555.666.

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.000.999................................................................333.444

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

..............888.777.666.555.444.333.222.111.111.222.

 

here Anthony made a vigorous direct attacked but was repulse by Brutus and force to withdraw

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Anthony actions show his poor judgment and lack of creativity in warfare.

 

and Brutus who are very cautious let's good luck and possible of winning the battle slip his hand.

He never try to launch any major counter attack against the withdrawing army of Anthony.

[caldrail]

RW, what is the point of all those text graphics? This is a thread for ROMAN CAVALRY TACTICS. Do you know any? If you want to discuss the Battle of Philippi then start your own thread on it. You may well know a vast amount concerning the Battle of Philippi but I don't care, because I'm not going to spend three days decoding your pictures. Anyone got a Rubiks Cube I could borrow? My brain needs the exercise.

[roman wargamer]

RW, what is the point of all those text graphics? This is a thread for ROMAN CAVALRY TACTICS. Do you know any? If you want to discuss the Battle of Philippi then start your own thread on it. You may well know a vast amount concerning the Battle of Philippi but I don't care, because I'm not going to spend three days decoding your pictures. Anyone got a Rubiks Cube I could borrow? My brain needs the exercise.

it just happen cavalry never take any major engagement in the 3 battle except as to hold flank area.

\ok! as you do not have the patience to wait for the fouth battle where Octavian use the

Cavalry charge to win the Final Battle of Philippi. i'll do it.

 

few thousand cavalry will not bear much against a 100,000 infantry if not properly use.

 

first it is my stand that both the Republican and the Triumvir's Army possess cavalry on that battle.

but let me be clear of what i believed and stand for on the Roman Tactics and Strategy.

 

the cavalry can do and do many center frontal attack on the enemy battle line

to make some gaps and breaking of men line to be later exploited by the following support infantry.

 

it is a Roman Tactic use to do a frontal attacked on enemy front line raraely done,

secondary attack are first initiated to covert the strategy and feint the real tactical move.

before the enemy can predict where the main attack will come, in this case a frontal attack.

 

it is the cavalry who will do the frontal attack because of the prime importance of time element.

so the enemy will have no time to re aligned forces or move reserve men as support, on critical time,

because it create more confusion on men to move around without any actual engagement.

 

ROMAN CAVALRY TACTICS. Do you know any?

i will show it in a more detailed manner in my next thread to empasize that

Roman Cavalry do only specific task in battle array according to their designation and function.

equites men of war do not run far away from battle array without express command from the counsul.

I'm not going to spend three days decoding your pictures.

battle diagram was use as an aid to visualize how a certain event happen. military men always do it to explain.

it will stand scrutiny on statistically and by probability standard. sorry if you are not use to it.

but hoping some understand it in expaining more than 100,000 men battle in the most simple way..

[caldrail]

it just happen cavalry never take any major engagement in the 3 battle except as to hold flank area.

Well course they didn't. Roman cavalry only started becoming numerous toward the end of the period, they were primarily used in flanking and supportive roles, generally only deployed head-on against opposing cavalry. Roman cavalry were used for shock value but that does not imply a collision of forces. Remember that the cataphractii/clibanarii were so heavily encumbered that they never galloped at charge speed anyway - it was too tiring for the horses.

 

few thousand cavalry will not bear much against a 100,000 infantry if not properly use.

Obviously. You could argue the reverse is true.

 

the cavalry can do and do many center frontal attack on the enemy battle line

to make some gaps and breaking of men line to be later exploited by the following support infantry.

Not according to roman sources, although I concede the shock value of approaching cavalry that was used in some battles. Why do you think these frontal attacks took place? Cavalry of this period where usually employed out on the wings to exploit their mobility. A frontal attack by cavalry will stop the enemy infantry from advancing but there's no guarantee they'll break them, and it might cause the cavalry to break off disordered. In the centre, without room to manoever, that won't help them.

 

it is a Roman Tactic use to do a frontal attacked on enemy front line raraely done,

secondary attack are first initiated to covert the strategy and feint the real tactical move.

before the enemy can predict where the main attack will come, in this case a frontal attack.

Predict? Ancient warfare ain't science my friend. Reacted is a better phrase. Infantry react to the presence of cavalry especially if they're heading toward them.

 

it is the cavalry who will do the frontal attack because of the prime importance of time element.

so the enemy will have no time to re aligned forces or move reserve men as support, on critical time,

because it create more confusion on men to move around without any actual engagement.

Nonsense. That might be standard for armoured warfare of recent times but the deployment of cavalry for an attack ahead of infantry is a harassing move, not a frontal assault. In other words, keep the enemy busy while you get yourself sorted. In any event, cavalry in this situation is not pressing home an unsupported attack - they will be using missiles and wheeling around to threaten the enemy, not waste their numbers in coming to melee that early on.

 

i will show it in a more detailed manner in my next thread to empasize that

Roman Cavalry do only specific task in battle array according to their designation and function.

Rubbish. Roman cavalry act on their own initiative just as much as orders from the general. The functions of roman cavalry were almost identical bar horse archers or cataphracts.

 

equites men of war do not run far away from battle array without express command from the counsul.

So you don't believe Tacitus then? or Vegetius? Or Arrian? No, cavalry retreat and regroup at their own cognizance, not the orders of a consul far away on the field (if indeed there's one present at all).

 

battle diagram was use as an aid to visualize how a certain event happen. military men always do it to explain.

:D In my experience, military men shout louder to explain and anyone who doesn't understand gets personal attention.

 

it will stand scrutiny on statistically and by probability standard. sorry if you are not use to it.

Possibly, but you're assuming its spotlessly correct. I have doubts that your layouts are identical in every case to historical alignment, and in any case, the text format is misleading. This is a text forum so most of us aren't worried if the explanation isn't precise to the last millimetre. It would in fact be better if you made your point in a few well phrased sentences than pages of text graphics.

Edited June 25, 2007 by caldrail