Germanicus

[Drusus Nero]

Up until his illness and untimely death Germanicus showed alot of promise as a great leader of men.

Do you think he would have led his legions to further glory on the battle field if his life had not been cut short?.

 

That is, of course, assuming he hadn't become emperor instead of Tiberius after Augustus's death.

[caldrail]

Its interesting that Germanicus was hailed as a war hero, yet many commentators believe him to be an indifferent general. Possibly Germanicus was a 'safe' general like so many in roman service. A man who didn't like to take risks, who showed caution. This is one of thereasons for roman military reverses I think, since history has shown that risk-takers very often make successful generals. Risk-takers are more likely to throw their reserves into the fray at key moments and swing the day in their favour. Who dares wins perhaps?

 

On the other hand, I see Germanicus as a commander still developing the skills of his trade. He was gaining experience, such an important quality in warfare. Yes, I agree, he had victories to come, but possibly never great ones.

[Drusus Nero]

Do you think he was the right man to send to Germany and aid Tiberius after the Teutoburg Forest massacre?.

[Primus Pilus]

Do you think he was the right man to send to Germany and aid Tiberius after the Teutoburg Forest massacre?.

 

He quelled a potential legionary revolt and led an effective punitive campaign. I'm not sure if anyone could've done been better, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that Germanicus was the wrong man.

[Gaius Octavius]

Did he lose or did he win?

Edited May 1, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Germanicus Julius Caesar]

How factual was the story of Agrippina's involvement in quelling that riot? By all accounts, she shamed the Legions that day, and helped preserve his command. She was a very influential aspect of his character, and it is difficult to dismiss her, when regarding him as a leader. I do not think he was puppet, or weak, but from all accounts, she was brazen, and direct. There is no doubt, in my mind, she spoke frankly with him.

 

That being said, I think he was a damned fine General. It was a tough job. Afterall, it was, at that time, one of Rome's greatest humiliations. Considering what he had to face, I believe he did well. I would like to think that the Roman people would recognize a great General, and by all accounts, he was a hero, and almost too good to be true. To me, his refusing to be Emperor, was unlike anything I had ever heard of.

 

His honor and loyalty alone, speak volumes of his character, which no doubt affected his skills as a military tactician. This is just my personal view, not anything someone said.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Germanicus Julius Caesar

[Divi Filius]

His honor and loyalty alone, speak volumes of his character, which no doubt affected his skills as a military tactician.

 

Why attempt a coup when frail old Tiberius is just waiting to pass on? He was the next in line and probably considered himself quite safe.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Divi Filius

[Drusus Nero]

You're right!, Germanicus (and Aggrippina to some extent) did very well to keep order in the camp.

One of the problems was the men hadn't been paid for a long time and were getting restless .

 

I think at one point wasn't Castor in the running to be the next emperor?.

[Germanicus Julius Caesar]

Considering Tiberius was one of Rome's better Generals, and only 56 at the time, I do not think that was a good strategy to take, nor the correct one. I do not believe Germanicus wanted to be Emperor. Perhaps it is just that simple. He was a great hero, a good general, and one of those rare men who put their country first. Thats just my personal view, and it warms me to think that such a man is still possible.

 

As for Castor, he was only related to the Claudian side of the family, and not the Julians. When Augustus forced Tiberius to adopt Germanicus as his son and heir, Castor was removed from the succession. Thats not to say Tiberius did not wish it, but Augustus spoke, and he obeyed. I am sure it factored in to his dislike of Germanicus.

 

As for his military skills. Is there contrary evidence that his foray into Germania against Arminius was riddled with bad decisions?

[The Augusta]

May I please remind everyone that 'Castor' is a purely fictional name, created by Robert Graves. This was Drusus the younger. As for his being only related to the Claudians - where do the Agrippans stand? Drusus the younger was Vipsania's son, and I would class Agrippa as far more 'Julian' than 'Claudian'.

 

Also, as another poster mentioned earlier in this thread - Germanicus was popular - which is not the same as his being a great general. He was a mediocre general with a sense of his own importance far outweighing his achievements.

Edited May 1, 2007 by The Augusta

[Germanicus Julius Caesar]

Ok, but he was still excluded from succession. Castor is far easier to type than his full name. lol.

 

But if he was mediocre, what, or who do you use as sources for this claim? What evidence is there that he was not a fine General who had no aspirations to become the next Emperor. If he was a safe, and mediocre General, I do not think he would have made it out of Germania. That place had a habit of devouring ordinary men.

 

I do not think he was a Julius Caesar, but neither was he some listless General who had no special attributes, or was so inept he could not lead or stategize with the best. The truth is always in the middle. Probably the case here as well.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Germanicus Julius Caesar

[The Augusta]

Ok, but he was still excluded from succession. Castor is far easier to type than his full name. lol

 

Germanicus? How was he excluded until his death in 19AD?

[The Augusta]

But if he was mediocre, what, or who do you use as sources for this claim?

 

Germanicus - I think our posts have crossed. But to throw the ball back into your court - I would ask what sources you use to support the fact that he was a great general. Tacitus? We all know that he painted everyone in a good light who was opposed to Tiberius. Suetonius? He merely echoed his popularity with the uneducated mob. I will admit that my 'sources' are more a modern interpretation of the ancients - Syme, Grant, Seager et al. who have sifted the primary sources and formed a less than favourable picture of this great 'godling'.

 

What evidence is there that he was not a fine General who had no aspirations to become the next Emperor.

 

What gains did he make? I will readily admit that he wanted to become the next emperor - that was the trouble. How do you defend a hysteric who, on falling ill, announces to all and sundry that he is the victim of witchcraft and poison? A drama queen if ever there was one! And let us not forget his foray into Egypt. Since the earliest days of Augustus' annexation of the province, Egypt had become the emperor's private property if you will. All generals - regardless of their rank or relation to the imperial family - had to have permission from the emperor to enter the province. Germanicus considered himself above such rules and therefore incurred Tiberius' suspicion. As a member of the imperial family he should have known how provocative this was. If this was the action of someone who could count on the legions of the empire to back him, he grossly miscalculated. Not only this - Piso was used as scapegoat to appease the people who had lost their darling. Due to the unfavourable picture of Tiberius painted by Tacitus, Germanicus has been lauded by far and away above what he deserves.

[Primus Pilus]

Ok, but he was still excluded from succession. Castor is far easier to type than his full name. lol

 

Germanicus? How was he excluded until his death in 19AD?

 

Indeed, he was given an Agrippa-like Imperium in the east and was an instrumental member of the 'imperial family'.

 

From Tacitus Annals Book 2; 43:

The provinces beyond the sea were thence decreed to Germanicus, with authority superior to all those who obtained provinces by lot, or the nomination of the Prince. But, Tiberius had already taken care to remove from the government of Syria Creticus Silanus, one united to Germanicus in domestic alliance, by having betrothed his daughter to Nero, the eldest son of Germanicus.

[The Augusta]

Ok, but he was still excluded from succession. Castor is far easier to type than his full name. lol

 

Germanicus? How was he excluded until his death in 19AD?

 

Indeed, he was given an Agrippa-like Imperium in the east and was an instrumental member of the 'imperial family'.

 

From Tacitus Annals Book 2; 43:

The provinces beyond the sea were thence decreed to Germanicus, with authority superior to all those who obtained provinces by lot, or the nomination of the Prince. But, Tiberius had already taken care to remove from the government of Syria Creticus Silanus, one united to Germanicus in domestic alliance, by having betrothed his daughter to Nero, the eldest son of Germanicus.

 

This is interesting, PP - was he actually given the tribuncia potestas? A maius imperium over the eastern provinces was what Agrippa received in 23 BC - the settlement of 18 BC which gave him trib. pot was much more crucial. I must say, off th etop of my head ( which all this is from) I don't remmeber him receiving the trib. pot. but I could be wrong.