What would have become of Octavian?

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

This is a spin off from the "Did Caesar deserve to die?" thread.

 

If the liberators had failed in their attempt to assassinate Julius Caesar and he'd gone on to dominate Rome , then what would have become of Octavian? Would he have still had the determination and intelligence to rise and become a prominent figure and successor to Caesar or would he have just been another face in the shadow of Caesar never coming to the fore and would he just go down in history as another name who lived in the age of Caesar?

 

I know this is another "what if ?" question but I enjoy them, it's interesting and fun to see the different tangents that people go off on.

 

So please give me your thoughts.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Nice topic mi Maxime!

 

Unfortunately, I cannot conjure a simple answer for your question. I think what happens to Octavian depends entirely on how the rest of Caesar's career goes. I know there are limitless possible scenarios, but here is what I am pegging as the four most likely where Caesar is not assasinated in order of likelihood and all assuming continuing peace while Caesar retains power as dictator:

 

1) Caesar dies (of natural causes) while in office.

 

In this scenario I see no special advantage for Octavian. Perhaps Caesar's will changes, perhaps Brutus becomes Caesar's new darling. I can foresee Octavian achieving higher office, but not as high as Caesar.

 

2) Caesar eventually retires near the end of his life.

 

Octavian fares better here I think (although it is still a shootout with Brutus and Anthony). Assuming Caesar sets the terms of his retirement and influences the "succession" process I think as long as Octavian is of proper magisterial age he might do quite well, possibly even attaining the same rank and honors as Caesar himself.

 

3) Caeasar eventually becomes Rex, the people are unhappy with this and he is eventually overthrown.

 

If Caesar eventually accepts the diadem and the people don't like it and he is deposed, I think octavian would be lucky to survive.

 

4) Caeasar eventually becomes Rex, the people rejoice and the monarchy returns to Rome.

 

Octavian looks good in this scenario, it is likely he would suceed Caesar (Brutus would be out of the picture but Anthony might still have a shot).

 

When he have discussed this thread at length, I would also like to another spin-off: If Caesar is never assasinated, does he eventually become Rex?

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

Excellent replies PNS!

 

1) Caesar dies (of natural causes) while in office.

 

In this scenario I see no special advantage for Octavian. Perhaps Caesar's will changes, perhaps Brutus becomes Caesar's new darling. I can foresee Octavian achieving higher office, but not as high as Caesar.

2) Caesar eventually retires near the end of his life.

 

Octavian fares better here I think (although it is still a shootout with Brutus and Anthony). Assuming Caesar sets the terms of his retirement and influences the "succession" process I think as long as Octavian is of proper magisterial age he might do quite well, possibly even attaining the same rank and honors as Caesar himself.

 

There's also the strong possibility that if Caesar lives to a ripe old age then there is still the chance that he could have fathered a legitimate son, then this would surely push Octavian as well as Brutus (as long as he'd stayed in JC's good books) further down the pecking order of succession. Where would he be then?

 

3) Caesar eventually becomes Rex, the people are unhappy with this and he is eventually overthrown.

 

If Caesar eventually accepts the diadem and the people don't like it and he is deposed, I think Octavian would be lucky to survive.

 

I think this is a certainty, the people would get rid of anyone with any connection to Caesar whatsoever, Octavian would surely be a dead man!

 

 

4) Caesar eventually becomes Rex, the people rejoice and the monarchy returns to Rome.

 

Octavian looks good in this scenario, it is likely he would succeed Caesar (Brutus would be out of the picture but Anthony might still have a shot).

Again the question of legitimate heir's crops up with this one, true Brutus would be out of the picture but Antony I'm not so sure, who Knows even Octavian might have been against the idea of a monarchy, he may well have distanced himself or even rebelled against it himself. Then where does that leave us???????

 

Great stuff, keep them coming

Edited April 23, 2007 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus

[Gaius Octavius]

Assuming that no other candidates enter the picture, it would seem that his adopted son, Octavianus, was considered by him the best of the lot available to be his heir. He could have easily adopted Brutus or Antony or another and make him his heir. He chose well as events proved.

 

Why would Caesar want the title Rex? What would that title add to his power or stature in the state or to his glory? For him, it was just a word that might only get him into trouble - and he most certainly was not a fool.

[Primus Pilus]

Had Caesar not been assassinated than its unlikely that Octavian could've or would've built a private army of Caesar's veterans, though he may still have been able to count on support from that sector. He still may have grown into a position of power based on the vast wealth and clientela that he stood to inherit, but the course of events are difficult to gauge. He would've had even more time to learn the arts of the political game, but perhaps he might not have developed that ruthless edge as a result of Caesar's more peaceful passing. The notion of vengeance, whether heartfelt or a tool, helped make Octavian. Without it he does seem to lose some of that luster.

 

Assume for a moment that Octavian attempted to seize power using his uncle's veterans without an assassination. There would've been no basis for this ploy, and his support may have eroded and in fact inspired more open resistance. Of course this assumes no other political conditions which would've made that position available to him and supportable by the army and the public. It's why the hypothetical is so difficult.. the possibilities are immeasurable.

 

By the by, I don't really see a basis for Brutus being seen as an heir over Octavian. He could've been named in the actual will but he wasn't. It's not as if Caesar changed it after the fact out of disappointment for having been assassinated. I agree that anything is a possibility when dealing with the hypothetical, and sentiments could've changed over time, but I'm sticking with the notion that Caesar would've preferred an heir with a closer familial lineage.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

GPM-

 

It is interesting you brought up the possibility of Caesar fathering a legitimate son had he lived long enough. I too thought of this after I made my post. This would have dramatically change the political landscape (at least for Octavian).

 

I always found it interesting that Caesar never declared to Octavian that he intended to adopt him and it was only discovered upon the reading of his will. I guess it could be argued that it was for his own protection, but I think it was more of an insurance policy. If Caesar had fathered a legitimate heir then he changes the will and no one would have been the wiser. But, if Caesar never does have a son then upon Caesar's death Octavian fills the void...quite clever.

 

GO-

 

I believe very strongly that Caesar's ultimate desire was to be Rex. What title is more fitting for the son of Venus and descendant of the Kings of Alba Longa. It was in Caesar's nature to overachieve...given time he would have pursued it. You are quite correct to state that it would have gotten him in trouble though. That is the only reason he shunned it thus far. However, if the people were willing, I think he would have eventually accepted the diadem. Clearly there is no concrete evidence of this...Ill just have to go with instinct for now.

 

If you think Caesar would never had accepted Rex, do you think he would have accepted Augustus in a situation similar to how Octavian did?

PP-

 

You are correct, at the time of Caesar's death, I don't think Brutus was a front runner. We know Caesar had concerns over Brutus' allegiance, but, since they had been so close, I think had Caesar lived there was a chance Brutus could have become heir instead of Octavian. As I said above, if things had progressed nicely with Brutus it would have been easy for Caesar to change his will.

 

I've just added something to my list of things I would love to know but never will: When was the will that named Octavian heir filed with the vestals?

[M. Porcius Cato]

By the by, I don't really see a basis for Brutus being seen as an heir over Octavian. He could've been named in the actual will but he wasn't.

 

Which Brutus? Decimus Brutus was named in Caesar's will.

 

Also, it's useful to consider an option not listed: Caesar is defeated by the Parthians and joins Crassus in the afterlife.

[Mosquito]

Also, it's useful to consider an option not listed: Caesar is defeated by the Parthians and joins Crassus in the afterlife.

 

I dont belive in this possibility. Altough im not an expert in parthian history but i belive that he would first look for someone or even some nation in the parthian empire which he could have support and next come with an army and conquer all, diving and ruling, winning on the battlefields and maybe even reaching India just like Alexander did. I know MPC that you dont like him but Ceasar wasnt Crassus.

[Primus Pilus]

By the by, I don't really see a basis for Brutus being seen as an heir over Octavian. He could've been named in the actual will but he wasn't.

 

Which Brutus? Decimus Brutus was named in Caesar's will.

 

M Junius... but I meant in the context of a primary beneficiary.

[Segestan]

Caesar living until his natural death or even being murdered at a much latter date , this would only have altered the ways ,and the means of Octavion

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Segestan-

 

You hinted at something very important in your argument. Timing was everything. One of the reasons why I think Augustus was so successfull and was able to accumulate so much power is 1) Through his conflicts with the liberatores, the second triumvirate, and eventually his conflict with Anthony he was able to amass his power slowly and 2) He had an entire lifetime to solidify the principate.

 

Had Caesar lived there is a good chance that Augustus would still have succeeded him (assuming a continuing perpetual dictatorship/pincipate arrangement under Caesar), but, I don't think he would have been as endearing without so much time at the forefront.

[Primus Pilus]

Caesar living until his natural death or even being murdered at a much latter date , this would only have altered the ways ,and the means of Octavion

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

After the death of Caesar the 120 million Roman citizens had had enough of the civil wars , the oligarchy and the senate , all were glade to put Rome into the hands of Augustus....the Roman Messiah. He served Rome well for 41 years. He died at Nola at 76 years of age.

I would agree that the citizens had had enough of civil war and I would agree that Augustus served Rome well for 41 years but I wouldn't say that they were entirely glad to put Rome into the hands of Octavian/Augustus at the very beginning, I would say that it was more like fear that persuaded them to do so, the beginnings of Octavian's rise to power were based on a platform of fear and proscriptions, the majority of citizens probably thought it better to just tow the line to save their names being next on the list.

 

Maybe the harsh measures that Octavian used were the necessary ones needed to transform Rome, because after all like you say , he did serve Rome for a successful and prosperous 41 years.

[Drusus Nero]

If the rumours about Brutus being Caesar's illegitimate son were true, then I think he most certainly would have been groomed by Julius to succeed him.

 

It obviously would have caused trouble between Brutus and Anthony, who was Caesar's right-hand man for so many years, and might have assumed he'd be the next in line after Caesar's (natural) death.

 

As for Octavius, I doubt he would have amounted to much if Caesar had lived to ripe old age. If the series "Rome" is to be believed, the young Octavius was controlled by his mother, and it seems to me he didn't have much personal ambition.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Drusus Nero

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

If the rumours about Brutus being Caesar's illegitimate son were true, then I think he most certainly would have been groomed by Julius to succeed him.

 

It obviously would have caused trouble between Brutus and Anthony, who was Caesar's right-hand man for so many years, and might have assumed he'd be the next in line after Caesar's (natural) death.

 

As for Octavius, I doubt he would have amounted to much if Caesar had lived to ripe old age. If the series "Rome" is to be believed, the young Octavius was controlled by his mother, and it seems to me he didn't have much personal ambition.

The chances of Brutus being Caesar's illegitimate son were very unlikely Caesar would only have been about 15 years old at the time of Brutus's birth and probably didn't even know Servillia by then, their affair didn't begin for about another ten years.

 

I wouldn't base your knowledge of Octavian as fact based solely on how he was portrayed in the "Rome" series